PropertySCAM is growingDo please note that we reserve the right to edit or delete comments that do not contribute positively to the debate on how to stop land banking.
1. magtan19/07/2006 13:49:07
I am regretfully owner of 2 plots. Had purchased them from The English Land Partnership (ELP) in 2004 and it was then that my nightmare started.
Since Feb'06, I had asked ELP to sell the 2 plots for me and was told that it will take about 6-8 weeks. As per their normal attitude, I don't ever receive calls from them about the progress. Having actively contacted them, I was assured that a Buyer had been found for one of my plot. Expectedly, nothing had progressed since that re-assurance and my situation is no different from the unfortunate day when I paid ELP.
I understand that the solicitor Paul Smith is helping some investors of European Land Sales Partnership(ELSP)to pursue a claim for their money. For investors of ELP who feel that they are victims of fraud, I will advise that you contact the solicitor on 01539 729555 as well, as he is keeping a record and may be able to give u some advice over the phone, which may be helpful for investors of ELP if there is a case for claim in the future.
(Edited by PropertySCAM to hide poster's email address posted by mistake in the "Your Name" field)
2. Zinn19/07/2006 15:46:44
i invested in united land holdings, thankfully only one plot. ULH is under investigation by the DTI. as a gamble and as part of the long term plan for my finances i thought it waqs worth a punt. i would advise anyone thinking about land investment to not bother. if anyone has info on whether land ionvestors with ULH can get some moeny back please let me know.
3. Phil Guck02/08/2006 12:21:17
Homepage: http://blog.multifloors.co.uk
I have been looking into land banking and came across your recent post that notes that people are becoming more aware of the problems associated with land banking. What are these problems? I've been dubious of this market, whilst also interested in exploring further. What advice can you give???
4. PropertySCAM02/08/2006 19:05:10
The problems are too numerous to revisit them in detail here, though a quick browse through the articles at this site will inform your thinking.
PropertySCAM is not here to give investment advice but, lest you think we are a lone voice against land banking drowned out by many voices in favour, at least on the Internet, will note here for you that:
- While there appear to be many web sites (and blogs) promoting land banking, these are all operated by a very small number of organisations which use the Internet aggressively to market land plots
- There is no documented case of any land plot sold by a land banker ever gaining planning permission.
- The prevailing opinion among developers and builders is that they would not buy a site comprising many plots with many owners, particularly where many of those owners are foreign nationals, resident overseas. It is logistically too complex an undertaking.
- Land investment, like many similar forms of investment, is unregulated in this country. There's no independent oversight of standards.
- Many land bankers have operated investment schemes before without conspicuous succes for any of their investors. These have involved things like ostrich farming and vintage port to name but two. Some people have been prosecuted as a result of these earlier schemes and barred from being company directors.
If you read nothing else, read the article linked from this PropertySCAM article:
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/CWLT-6PCBDV
Thanks for dropping by at PropertySCAM.
5. Trevor Dennington02/08/2006 19:34:57
As the senior partner in Land Planning Associates, a planning law consultancy specialising in obtaining planning permission since 1989, I have received many requests for assessment of present or future development potential of so-called investment "building plots" located in open countryside (and often in Green Belt - the worst designation for prospects of winning planning permission for anything, let alone a dwelling).
WITHOUT ONE EXCEPTION, I have been forced to tell the disappointed owner - yes, they always ask us AFTER they buy ! ! ! - that there is no present prospect of winning planning permission, and that it is unlikely there ever will be any such prospect looking as far into the future as one can reasonably speculate.
Most have paid thousands of pounds - often over £10,000 - for a piece of land worth £1,000 or so, and unlikely to ever be a viable development proposition anyway because of problems of multiple ownership of the larger site area.
Under planning legislation which has retained the same principles since 1990, and currently section 38(6) of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act, all planning decisions are required to follow the policies of the development plan and other material considerations. This applies equally to planning appeals, and effectively rules out winning permission to build on rural land unless very exc eptional circumstances can be presented.
These "rural investment plots" must rank as one of the worst "investments" I have ever seen.
6. Mike Bowers07/08/2006 15:31:04
Dear All,
I do agree with the comments regarding the concept of greenbelt land gaining planning permission. However, to call this practice "land banking" would be incorrect.
It's the equivalent of saying that those people cramping migrants into homes would typify the buy to let market.
I have previous experience with land banking, as I have worked for a number of large companies who use the concept for their pension funds. However in these circumstances, the companies (mainly developers) have used greenFIELD aka whitebelt land. Which if chosen correctly will certainly give an uplift but can return a very high amount.
For anyone who is sceptical about the idea of land banking yes do not use greenbelt! However don't be so quick to judge the idea of greenfield as it does stand a realistic possibilty. As far as I am aware there however are only a handful of land banking companies and ESTATE AGENTS selling greenfield.
Just thought I'd shed some light on the positives, not just highlighting the negative!
Thanks
Mike
7. PropertySCAM07/08/2006 15:47:26
Sadly, the term "land banking" has been stolen by the land banking companies in order to give a legitimate sounding name to their activities.
Yes, we are aware that land banking in the more traditional sense is practiced by every mainstream developer (and quite a few supermarket chains too).
The land banking being discussed here is very specifically that type of land banking which involves the purchase and subdivision of green belt or other specially designated land and its sale in small plots, for prices around 10-100 times its present value, mainly to immigrants or foreign nationals as an "investment" vehicle.
The DTI and FSA are increasingly frequently stepping in in cases such as these to act against what are essentially unauthorised and unregulated collective investments.
8. Trevor Dennington09/08/2006 20:34:01
I agree with Mike Bowers over the abuse of the term "landbanking". ("Land speculation" would more accurately describe ALL activities involving the purchase of land based on a perceived possibility of profit via future planning permission for development.)
As a Planning Law specialist, I can however state categorically that there is no universally accepted definition of White Land and that "Whitebelt" is a term I have never seen used in 17 years full time involvement in winning planning permission.
Furthermore, greenfield land is not necessarily in the countryside. "Greenfield" means merely that the land has not been previously developed, unlike "brownfield" land or, to give it its correct title, "Previously Developed Land" as defined in PPG3 Housing March 2000.
9. Trevor Dennington12/08/2006 00:52:50
QUOTE from another thread: : "Liberal Democrats : Mulholland seeks to block rip off Landbanking threat to Greenbelt
Lib Dem MP Greg Mulholland, Leeds North West, today pledged to try to put an end to a property speculation scam that threatens Britain's greenbelt.
Greenbelt land is being bought up by so-called 'land bankers' who draw up plans for housing estates on these protected sites and sell them on at grossly inflated prices.
Sites in Mulholland's constituency are being sold for £18,000 - but are only worth £115."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what happened to this initiative - one of very few good ones to come from the Lib Dems?
Answer ........ Nothing in 9 months !
Shouldn't we begin to wonder WHY ?
Shouldn't we wonder if the reason isn't the same reason we heard no more about the proposal in the draft Planning & Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 to require that dividing less than a hectare (2.47 acres) of rural land for the purposes of sale would require planning permission?
How much is the GOVERNMENT making from this racket - income in tax on the profits of the landbanking companies at 40% ?
Someone paying £10,000 for a "plot" worth next to nothing is contributing £4,000 to Gordon Brown's tax income.
Hmmmmmmmm ! ! !
10. Greg Jones14/08/2006 21:42:39
I was cold-called by a firm called "Countrywide Land Holdings Ltd". The salesman, or Senior Partner as he called himself, used some quite high pressure techniques to try to get me to invest in a plot of land somewhere near Crawley. I told him I wasn't interested several times, but he wouldn't give up. In the end I just hung up on him. Your site is very useful, and most of the comments seem to confirm what I thought, that this so-called Land Banking is a rip-off.
11. Peter Browne21/08/2006 18:57:52
True, alot of these companies are crooks, look at [list of land banking companies removed by editor] and so on they all say "within 3 years or 5 years" only one estate agents has told me that it could take 10 to 20 years and as i liked the land i bought it for my childern, be aware of the cowboys, they say it's freehold, but tell you that you have to sell once they get planning on the land.
12. C Eccleston22/08/2006 12:41:59
Homepage: http://www.bigpeoplebusiness.com
I'm contacting you regarding a company called Countrywide Landholdings, found at the following link; http://www.countrywidelandholdings.co.uk/ . I contacted them through an email some months ago as I was interested in some new investments.
This company has since pursued me relentlessly. I've had a few conversations with three different people and each time I've told them that I'm not interested. I received a call yesterday and told them that not only was I not interested but that I had no money left.
Today I received a call from someone called Tony (Hall?). I told him that I already spoke to someone the previous day at length. He was able to tell me that I had only been on the phone for three minutes. I then explained that I was no longer interested, had found something else etc. He did not let go. I finally hung up and this man called back twice. I didn't answer these calls. This company is a joke and a nightmare. How dare they pursue me so aggressively? Please help. I'm sure they are not behaving ethically and what about people who aren't as strong willed as myself.
13. PropertySCAM22/08/2006 13:35:47
Well, clearly this sort of aggressive sales tactic is at the very least unethical.
We have no direct experience of dealing with this type of problem however and are not best placed to give direct advice. However we can suggest two channels.
- Your local Citizens' Advice Bureau and/or telephone service provider may be able to advise on how to deal with nuisance callers.
- The FSA and/or DTI would probably be very interested in hearing first hand about your experiences.
They are currently acting against a number of land banking companies, these actions said to be in the public interest. It is surely in the public interest to act against these sort of high pressure selling tactics.
See contact details at these pages:
http://www.dti.gov.uk/administration/contact/index.html
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/Pages/Doing/Contact/index.shtml
14. GB22/08/2006 18:03:06
Like comment 2 by Zinn we also purchased from ULH, one plot, also for a punt. We are now unclear whether we actually own this (albeit worthless) plot of land, since ULH is under investigation. Is it worth having our solicitor investigate further?
15. PropertySCAM22/08/2006 18:44:24
Did you hand over money? Do you have a deed or anything from the land registry? Whether you do or not, yes, we think you probably should get expert legal advice although if you do own the plot, it is unlikley to be resellable.
16. GB24/08/2006 10:12:18
Yes we handed over money and yes I have a 'Transfer of part registered title (s)' from the Land Registry. This states that the transferor (ULH) transfers the Property to the transferee (me) with full title guarantee.
I understand that we may now own a piece of land which we cannot sell and is worthless anyway. And when we made this purchase we knew it was a gamble and was potentially risky. I suppose I want to be clear whether we actually own the land or not.
17. PropertySCAM24/08/2006 11:39:56
We think you probably do but you should not rely on our opinion. To be sure you'd be well advised to consult a solicitor familiar with the mechanisms of property transfer.
18. Nan31/08/2006 11:26:46
I wonder if anybody has bought plots from a company called Rubicon estates. They are involved in land banking business. Is this also one of those scam company?? Please let me know.
19. Dave 02/09/2006 01:52:05
In the Guardian report on your site concerning land in Hawk Green, from what I read it states Local Lib Dem MP Andrew Stunell supports a forthcoming parliamentary move to rein in landbankers. The report continues....... Mr Stunell told residents earlier this week: "All parties in Stockport want to preserve the green belt. Developers will not get their own way. It cannot get past current planning laws.
"However, the people who are really at risk here are the idiots who buy these plots, hoping to make a quick buck."
Sorry Mr. Stunell, did I read that right? "....the people who are really at risk here are the idiots who buy these plots".
You're not interested in protecting consumers are you Mr. Stunell? You can't be, you label them as "at risk" then call them "Idiots". Let me tell you Mr. Stunell that the idiots are the ones I see when I am in Parliament Square going into the Commons. Your attitude is typical of the bullying attitude of the ruling classes in the UK. APOLOGISE TO THIS FORUM.
20. PropertySCAM02/09/2006 09:44:14
Dave, for the record, PropertySCAM's view is that people who have bought plots are neither idiots nor greedy as they are also sometimes labelled.
We have met both the land bankers and their customers and can say with confdence that the latter are generally intelligent people, too often misled by the obfuscatory tactics of the former. That is all.
21. Trevor Dennington05/09/2006 22:37:26
Yes, Dave, I agree that "idiots" was too strong a word for an MP to use.
Perhaps you can suggest another description for people who would pay 10 times its current value for a piece of land, based purely on assurances from the SELLER that it could prove a good investment in the fullness of time, and when the predictions of most of these so-called "landbanking" companies have been shown by experience to be optimistic in the extreme.
Would you pay £70,000 for my S-Type Jaguar which is currently worth £7,000-£8,500 based on MY assurance to you that you might well make a good profit on the car at some undefined future time ? No, of course not !
How would you label someone who would ?
Why do exactly the same with land then ?
Potential investors in land MUST take independent professional advice about future development potential AND all other aspects of any proposal. (For example, even supposing that planning permission was obtained, the Webmaster here has highlighted the fact that a development company is not going to try to negotiate a site purchase from God-Knows-How-Many individual owners, many of whom may not be traceable at the time.)
I have many clients who have made 6-figure profits from land deals. None of them made those profits via a landbanking company.
22. Y Patel09/09/2006 22:42:09
I was considering purchasing land as an investment and just just believed all the hype presented by the landbanking companies, thats until I came across your website, albeit randomly. I will never buy land now. I think your website needs to at the top of the search page otherwise many more people will fall for this scam. I have left my name and address with many of the landbanking companies so will be expecting several calls from them in the next few days....I will tell them where to go with their plots of land!!
23. Jeff Stobbart19/09/2006 13:18:37
I have recently purchase two plots with Countrywide Land holdings, one at Rusper and one at Cricklade and as yet received no paperwork for one and had no copies of completed TP1 forms for the other?? They where very keen to progress my application prior to purchase but are not so keen to return my calls with regards to the above, is there anybody out there with any experience of this Company, either good or bad news would be apprieciated?
24. Annonymous26/09/2006 13:05:52
As per comment 23 by Jeff Stobbart, I too purchased a plot of land from Countrywide Land Holdings in Rusper back in the beginning of August and aside from a receipt to say that they have received payment, I have not received any legal documents to suggest I actually own any land. Constant phone calls to them prove fruitless as it is either never answered or calls never returned and it now seems that i have become a victim of a scam and wondered if there are any legal way of getting my money back or is that it for all my hard earned cash??
25. andy03/10/2006 21:00:08
as with comments 23 / 24 i too purchased a plot in Rusper but i have had quite a lot of follow up calls from a Tony Johnson promising TP! paperwork. as yet i am yet to receive it and having read the other comments i fear i may have been conned. If my paperwork arrives i will let you all know. what chance do we have of getting our money back?
26. Trevor Dennington04/10/2006 23:42:16
"What chance do we have of getting our money back?"
Unfortunately, about the same chance as Neil Armstrong has of walking on the moon again ! 
27. Andy06/10/2006 19:49:58
I finally had the TP1 form through for the land at Rusper but having now read all the comments from everyone especially Trevors which was indeed my worst fear. i think i shall be seeking legal advice for a way forward. does anyone have any advice on a way forward?
i think anonymous and Jeff could benefit fom this advice also
28. Trevor Dennington09/10/2006 13:28:10
Sales of these plots are not regulated, unlike most other "investments" which are regulated by the Financial Services Authority.
Therefore any remedy you may have will be dependent on the terms of your specific contract with the vendor.
Once the deal is completed however, the general legal maxim of caveat emptor (buyer beware) applies. Essentially, this means that it is up to the buyer to ensure that he is buying what he set out to purchase.
Generally speaking, any representations the vendor made before and outside the contract are not enforceable in the Courts, who will presume that the contract contains all of the relevant terms and provisions.
And, unfortunately, it is possible to argue that virtually any piece of land has 'future development potential'. The key questions are for what, and when ! And unless the development potential can be realised in the foreseeable future, such potential is plainly rather academic.
29. Martin16/10/2006 13:55:05
Like many others, I only found out about propertySCAM when I visited the site in southern England. I saw a placard that made me panic because I had already paid for the plot. Eventually I managed to get a full refund, but I don't think I would have got it if I had signed any legal documents (this is what makes land purchase a variation on normal consumer rights).
I have noticed that much of the marketing for UK plots goes on in India and Singapore, where these firms seek to manipulate consumers via family and historical ties to the UK. The message of this site needs to reach those in Asia who are buying a large quantity of the plots on sale here.
I'm curious as to the practice been seen as a "blight" by residents. There seems to be a clear consensus in local authorities that these plots will not be built on, and I'm sure necessity will cause local government to take a lead in managing these future forgotten Common fields. Meanwhile we need legislation on this urgently; As far as I'm concerned, anyone or any company who trades using the word "investment" for anything, should be regulated by the FSA.
30. Gary16/10/2006 15:03:11
I recently came pretty close to investing with Country Wide Land Holdings. I have to hand it to the salesman who phoned - he made a pretty convincing case for land banking. Even now it makes sense to me i.e. thousands of houses need to be built in Kent so land is obviously going to be needed. Buy it now and make a huge profit.
The only things that stopped me investing were :-
1. No matter how much I searched I can't find any cases of anyone making money from investing with a land banking company, and
2. The comments from people on your web site.
Thanks PropertyScam. I feel like I've made money by not getting involved with these people!
31. PropertySCAM16/10/2006 16:35:37
Ref comment 29 by Martin, plot sites often cause blight for several reasons:
1 - Although this is now less common than once it was, many early plot sites were staked out to indicate to prospective purchasers the precise location of plots. This materially alters the appearance of the landscape, and not for the better.
2 - Land that has been actively used and managed no longer is and leaving agricultural land to lie fallow in this way also can cause a deterioration in appearance.
3 - House prices can be negatively impacted by the appearance of a plot site adjacent to existing housing. This is not because development is imminent or even likely, but because of the uncertainty seeded in the minds of prospective house purchasers.
We agree about the need for regulation and, while more can and should be done, some land banking is now required to be authorised by the FSA if the land banking scheme in question is deemed to be a collective investment vehicle.
32. Martin18/10/2006 09:48:35
ref post 29 / 31
Thanks for clearing up why the subdividing is a blight, particularly point 3 about the unsettling of the local housing market.
In addition to the issue of the plot sales, another thing that is curious are the designs. Even if the plots did have building potential; I can't really imagine LA's will necessarily be happy with the "road" layouts, most of which appear to be very 1950s in style, with no cul-de-sacs and grids of parallel streets. Sorting this issue out would be chaotic at the very least.
It is also interesting the St Albans connection. It appears that several of these firms are based or have offices there, which I can only assume that there is a large parent company involved.
33. PropertySCAM18/10/2006 10:58:17
Most land bankers publish site layouts showing access roads with individual plots laid out along them. These layouts have no practical significance but serve to further the illusion among prospective plot purchasers that development is possible, if not actually likely.
In fact, development is at best unlikely in every case for the reasons given at length elsewhere on this site.
34. Nic19/10/2006 12:00:00
Anyone invested with Sinclair Deville's Abbey View!? They keep claiming that they are different, but to me it sounds like a collective investment scheme as they sell it on to a developer am I right!? and they are not registered with the FSA, claim they don't have to! Which would make them illegal!? As ler grenfield, greenbelt - greeenbelt these days just seems to be an expression - important is to contact the council's and find out what their policy is regarding each plot advertised......most of the time its based near flood-plains - expensive and complicated to get authorised or in landscape of outstanding beauty etc. which basically translates to greebn-belt and not included it any planning for housing for year's to come!
35. PropertySCAM19/10/2006 12:15:30
Nic (comment 34) - if you mean the land at Sherington Bridge Farm, Newport Pagnell, sometimes styled "Abbey View", then the council's published statement seems as good a reference as any.
http://www.mkweb.co.uk/local_plan_review/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=29984
36. nic22/10/2006 11:33:46
thanks anyone out there who has bought into it?
37. Paul28/10/2006 02:29:42
I recently purchased two plots of land from a company called [removed] and they apparently aim to get full planning permission by the end of 2009. Having read some of the other comments I'm a bit concerned now. Does anyone know anything about this company?
38. Trevor Dennington29/10/2006 21:56:17
Paul -
Where did you find this "[removed]" outfit?
The only one I can find on the Internet is a USA company and it doesn't appear to deal in UK land.
Be assured that [removed] is nothing whatever to do with my planning consultancy, Land Planning Associates.
39. Trevor Dennington30/10/2006 09:24:43
OK, someone else has found them for me ! (God Knows why my Google didn't!)
In my view, this is plainly a Collective Investment Scheme requiring authorisation.
The buyers have no day to day control over management decisions concerning the property, since [removed] state an intention to exercise their right to sell the site as a whole when/if permission is gained.
40. Trevor Dennington30/10/2006 21:03:05
I have had a very quick look at the two pieces of land currently offered by [removed] at [removed] and [removed]. Despite the abbreviation their name produces ([removed]!) they don't seem to be as full of gas as most "landbank" companies I have come across.
They are absolutely upfront with the fact that both sites are currently designated as Green Belt. There is no way that permission will be granted for housing on the sites - or indeed any other significant built development - unless they can get that designation changed and the land effectively brought within the settlement area.
National planning guidance discourages that in all but a few exceptional circumstances, one of which is an inability to otherwise provide an adequate supply of housing land. The general thrust of Green Belt policies is that, once boundaries of a Green Belt area are set, they do not change.
Their "track record" as published on their website indicates that they have at least enjoyed success gaining planning permission on sites in the past - a lot more than one can say for some other companies offering land investment.
Time will tell .....
41. malcolm01/11/2006 11:49:02
To confirm Martin, there is a connection with land companies in St Albans as Property Spy plc is the main company based there. Property Spy plc actually is part of a group of companies - also called Hartwell Associates. Under the name there is approximately 8 other company names - all owned by the same one person. You will no doubt view different land companies on the net - without realising that many are all connected to Property Spy plc. Property Spy says that planning permission may be granted within the next 10 years. This will not happen. On all paperwork buyers sign - who purchase plots from them -it does say they cannot guarantee planning permission. However people still buy - and yes the Sales people at the company have travelled to Pakistan/India to buy land - in particular the land at the Harpenden Road, St Albans site. Any other questions you are curious about re this company - feel free to ask.
42. trevor dennington02/11/2006 23:19:30
Malcolm
I have heard before that many of these "landbanking" companies have an incestuous association, and I noticed a significant similarity in the layout of their websites at one time. Some were virtually identical !
Do you have any further information about who owns which plot sales companies?
43. malcolm03/11/2006 08:56:56
trevor,
Yes I do know around 10 company names that Property Spy go under! Some of them are used to purchase the land - giving the impression of know connection to any other company - then Property Spy is the leader who sells the site publicly. Also Property Spy have associates that sell their land for them and so they receive a percentage. If you have one in particular you have questions about please do let me know. By the way its not common knowledge but the company UKLI was set up by ex Property Spy employees. It is not as big as it sounds - they exagerate moreso than Property Spy the chances of gaining planning permission on their sites.
(the stories I could tell you!)
44. PropertySCAM03/11/2006 09:59:06
Malcolm, we'd love to hear some of those stories privately if you could confirm your preferred email address on your next post. Be assured, we never reveal any names or email addresses of our contributors to anyone else.
45. malcolm03/11/2006 10:53:20
[email address removed by site administrator]
If you have questions please email me with your details.
46. Sharon07/11/2006 22:39:27
Hi,a collecive investment doesnt allow you to withdraw from the scheme until all other investors do would I be correct in assuming this or is it more complicated than that?
47. PropertySCAM08/11/2006 08:43:15
Not necessarily. Here are two links which describe collective investment schemes in more detail:
HM Revenue & Customs: What is a Collective Investment Scheme?
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/collective/what-is.htm
Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, section 235 - definition of collective investment schemes
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00008--t.htm#235
Neither of these suggest that participants in collective investment schemes are locked in until all other investors exit.
In the case of a land plot collective investment, it is difficult to see how an early exit might be effected though, unless you could find some other investor willing to take on your commitment (and why would he/she when there are so many other land plots available?).
48. Ramesh12/11/2006 10:42:50
I have unfortunately invested in a few plots with country wide land holdings. I am yet to even recieve the TP1 forms. Has any one else invested in this outfit? Should we possibly join hands to try and find out more on what is happening. If I need to seek legal help can any one please suggest how to go about it?
49. Seamus Mullan13/11/2006 12:17:18
Have just found your site by accident. Information very useful.
I am being contacted by [removed] re purchase of plots south of Bromley.
Again the "potential" is their main selling point.
Has anyone any info on this company?
In general is the collective view that these schemes are NOT good investment opportunities?
Seamus
50. PropertySCAM14/11/2006 13:36:57
Seamus, please read this:
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/fivemyths.htm
51. mike k16/11/2006 07:54:45
jeff stobbart & countrywide land holdings
i have had dealings with these people in june 2005, cold called by a female on phone for 20 mins in aldi, would not take no for a answer, asked her if they did a info pack just to get rid, was sent one, did loads of research but was not convinced, was contacted by a guy called Danny Williams a true professional sales man, this guy bombarded me with calls relentlessly, started trying to sell me plot at £6,000 then £12,000 (folkestone) i do not consider myself a idiot as some have said we are, this guy is so convincing saying things like you just can not lose on this deal. paid deposit £1,200 just to get rid of him, he promised me i could get a full refund if not happy to go ahead with the deal, i was not but did not want to get in touch with this guy again, sent a letter recorded delivery to CWLHoldings explaining i wanted a refund, got a call a few days later from Mr Williams who said he was totally shocked, of course he is such a smooth talker telling me i would thank him in 2 years time for recieving a chq £120,000. Got all documents, need a solicitor, i still have not singed form for land registor due to plot number being wrong.
I did free search at companies house to find director came up Mr Maynard i did have his address in London area, he owned the all block of flats, sent him letter about unethical selling methods of Mr Williams and how i was rushed into buying, told him how if i had read MP Greg Mulhollands coments i would not have gone ahead, got no reply i wish this site was around then
Thing is what do we do now? Folfestone site alone has 180 plots on phase 1 the gateway to europe, the london corridor and all the other selling ploys, lets get together and turn these sites into illegal camps or carbooting, easier said than done. Please keep the info flowing and good luck everyone
52. Beena16/11/2006 13:21:11
I bought a plot of land from Land Heritage UK in July. Full payment was made (£5000), I had signed the documents but received no land registry papers confirming that I owned the land. In August I received a letter from them notifying me that they were suspending sales of their plots due to FSA investigation. I have just received another letter stating that they have gone into liquidation as all their investors are requesting their money back. As I haven't received any land registry papers, I don't own the land and can only assume that I have lost £5000. Is that correct?
53. PropertySCAM16/11/2006 13:26:51
If the company is in administration, you should probably get in touch with the court appointed administrator to register your claim. The company doubtless has other creditors and you need to register an interest if you are to stand any chance of getting money back.
54. Martin18/11/2006 09:23:51
I have noticed that UKLI have just announced a new site, Earl Shilton in Leicestershire. There is a lot of detail on the website and their case for development rests on a new by-pass. However, one might consider it over ambitious that they predict that the land will be approved for development in less than 4 years... The design is unimaginitive and includes a small park and pond in the corner- seems like a new tactic.
55. Roger rie21/11/2006 14:10:06
Does anyone have any insight/comment re the land for presently beng offered for sale by UKLI at Finchampstead in Berks and has anyone on this Forum any experience of investment with UKLI?
56. Martin22/11/2006 09:42:22
I have posted on here a few times before, but have not mentioned my site. I paid for a plot at Finchampstead with UKLI. However, after seeing this website and learning that the field has a large oil pipeline through, that I was not told about, I asked for a refund. I believe I got the refund because I hadn't signed the deeds at all. They were helpful, but I wouldn't involve myself in anything like this ever again. I have also found that the parent company is Regent Land Limited.
57. Jim22/11/2006 12:20:58
Martin - I am a member of the Finchampstead Society who are campaigning against landbanking and UKLI's site in Finchampstead in particular. I am interested to know how you found out about the fuel pipeline. Also please note Regents Land is only what the landbankers call a land holding company. As far as I am aware UKLI is 100% owned by a British man called Bally Chohan and comes under the UK Capital Investments Group of companies which he also owns and is the chief executive.
58. mike k22/11/2006 14:39:34
anyone had dealings with Countrywide Land Banking Plc
59. Alan24/11/2006 11:48:25
Does anyone know anything about "Hambrook and Greenstock" ?
Thanks
60. PropertySCAM24/11/2006 12:27:13
Alan (comment 59) - see response in comment 15 here:
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6T5KZW
61. Martin25/11/2006 12:37:11
Ref comment 57, Jim. The pipeline issue is public knowledge via Wokingham Council's planning statement regarding the field at Finchampstead. It is also mentioned in my unsigned deeds that the pipeline is operated by Serco Gulf.
62. Robert Beasley25/11/2006 22:23:41
English Lane Partnership
Those already scammed investors with the frequently exposed English Land Partnership (also known as theelp) should be even more concerned because of the difficulty in contacting them in a meaningful way.
Their 0870 225 0010 number at their impressive sounding mail pickup address (1 Berkeley Street Mayfair London W1J 8DJ) is answered by a receptionist with a “Karen Here”, when challenged she says she does work for the ELP and that there is a new number 0870 445 0457. And guess what if you ring this number who do get but Karen again. Needless to say there is never anyone available of any authority to talk to, you get a promise of a call back, but they never do.
Karen’s answers on the following were.
1. Why is the number 0207 025 2720 at your 85 Hatton Garden (another multiple company address) now disabled?
“We are currently installing a new telephone system”
2. Why is your web site now non functional?
“We are currently developing a new Web site”
3. Why are any emails sent to your client service address clientcare@theelp.com never even acknowledged?
“No Reply”
4. Why are telephone calls never returned as promised.
“No Reply”
All this together with the fact that their other contact number 0207 936 9021 is answered with a “You have the wrong number” and the phone slammed down makes everything look even more ominous than before.
This brings to me to another outfit called the London Land & Property Exchange Ltd who are currently trying to sell plots on a site at Hermitage Lane, Maidstone. If you look on their web site www.llpx.org they mention the English Land Partnership as an associate company. Now London Land & Property Exchange claim to be acting on behalf of Portman Land Investments Ltd www.portman.uk.net/aboutus.htm and I have also heard in the past from The English Land Partnership that Portman were interested on taking options on some of their sites. So is there any tie up between these outfits.
63. John29/11/2006 04:47:13
Has anyone heard of or invested in Walton International who operate from Asia Canada, Germany and the united states
http://www.waltoninternational.com/asia/about.asp?ArtID=104
They have been in business for over 27 years and their website reads as follows... Walton manages approximately 6,000 acres in and around the City of Calgary and approximately 9,000 acres within the City of Edmonton. Walton now manages approximately 22,500 acres on behalf of over 35,000 investors worldwide.
64. malcolm29/11/2006 13:34:34
UKLI was originally set up in the main by a number of disgruntled ex Property Spy employees incase anyone reading this was not aware.
In case anyone is interested.. Prop Spy have some sales people over in South Africa as we speak - trying to sell plots of land in the UK to the SA people. (they have exhausted India and Pakistan!)
65. Nigel Walter30/11/2006 10:44:07
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
Dear readers I am the Managing Director of UK Land Investments and I have read your comments with interest as I too am concerned with companies who are mis-selling or mis-leading with their marketing information.
However, as with many opportunities and industries there are two sides of every story and some of the ones specifically in reference to UK Land Investments here are not based on factual evidence at all so thought I'd quickly correct some of these inaccuracies.
To answer some of the questions raised specifically about our business:
1. Regents Land is the business that buys the majority of land for the Group of Companies - some of this is used for the so called 'Land Banking' model whilst other land sites are for used for specific investment opportunties with private individuals and investment groups.
UK Land Investments is the sales and marketing brand used to offer this investment opportunity to clients.
2. Finchampstead - I am sorry that Martin (comment 56) that you were not told about the pipeline on the site - if you can let me know who you spoke to I will ensure that he/she is re-briefed.
The oil pipeline, however, has no bearing whatsoever on the development potential and returns on the site. Indeed there are no inhibiting factors affecting the potential development of the site - UK Land Investments have commissioned over £100,000 worth of research and work on the site and anyone is welcome to visit the offices and we will show the main reports.
The site map with various investment size parcels of land has no relation whatsoever to the final development - our business model is only based on promoting our land through to allocation and selling to a developer - the developer will then finalise the development with a Local Authority - indeed we expect this site the be 50% public open space and approximately 150 homes - the potential returns are based on very detailed research and are conservative, based on current housing prices.
The potential value of an investment is based on an equalised price of the land on the whole site to a developer at allocation stage, so the location of a particular parcel of land is on a site is not important.
We have never refused a refund to any investor within 3 months of purchasing a piece of land.
3. Site at Earl Shilton - with due respect to Martin (54) we have undertaken a huge amount of research on all our sites, including Earl Shilton and I would be delighted to show you the factual evidence on the prospects of this site.
Please also remember that the site make-up and parcels of land on offer bear no relation whatsoever to the final development as detailed earlier.
I would be delighted for you or anyone else interested in this industry, or indeed has any questions regarding collective investment schemes or any other aspect of the industry or specific questions on either Finchampstead or Earl Shilton, to please e-mail me and/or come in and visit our offices and meet myself and our Land buying and Planning Team.
We have an open door policy for all clients and potential clients and are happy to answer any questions on these sites and why we acquired them and the potential opportunities.
4. Property Spy - Malcolm (64) - not sure about where you got your facts from, but UK Land Investments was not originally set-up by disgruntled ex-Property Spy employees, although out other the 200 employees we have in this business there are 8 people who have previously worked for them.
Again please e-mail me direct with any questions you have at all regarding any aspects of the industry and I would be delighted to answer them or arrange for you to come in and meet the team in London.
66. G Smith01/12/2006 18:57:40
I have recently been approached by England and SVI Partnership TO PURCHASE A PLOT OF LAND IN KENT -Elvington Green near Hawkinge. Is this a scam.
67. mike k02/12/2006 08:36:02
ref;comment66
i have a plot at Hawkinge, paddlesworth lane, got it through Countrywide Land Holdings just over a year ago, was told value will be ten fold in three years time, took legal doc's to solicitor who said i needed professional on land deals, dident bother with pro, i still have not registered the plot. This web site was not around at the time, if it was i sure i would not have bothered with the purchase
68. Cycloneman05/12/2006 14:00:11
O what a wicked web they weave
Those of you scammed individuals of the “English Land Partnership” otherwise known as “theelp” know of difficulty of now contacting them. The web sites www.theenglishlandpartnership.com and the www.theelp.com lead nowhere should now try www.elpcity.info. Because what you get the same old website with the Nadine Dereza presentation film.
They now give a contact number of 0800 177 7170 and they still have the same impressive address of 1 Berkely Street, London W1 and enquires to enquires@elpcity.info . If you ring the number you get answered by an outfit calling themselves “Land and Property Group”.
If you access the www.landandpropertygroup.com you find that they give a contact number of 0800 412 5801. Their website then refers to a company called
Portman Land Investments Ltd, 30 Hyde Way,Welwyn Garden City, Herts, Al7 3UQ, telephone 01707 335581, www.portman.uk.net
Now going back to the elpcity website they refer to an associate company called London Land and Property Exchange, 18 Soho Square, London, W1D 3QC telephone 0870 4450 457. Their web site is www.llpx.org (this web site was developed by a company based in Doncaster. Doncaster happens to be where Ian McCallum, Cussins House, Wood Street is based, he is one of the partners of the ELP, is this a coincidence). If you look on this site then you will see that they also refer to working in conjunction with Portman Land Investments.
I have also found another outfit “Leaders In Land”, 34-36 Bracton House, High Holborn, London WC1V 6AE telephone 0207 190 1672 www.leadersinland.com who are also offering some common sites to those of the ELP.
If anyone that reads this that can give clarification on the relationships above I am sure that their comments will be welcome.
69. Malcolm05/12/2006 14:05:33
Nigel Walter - regards Property Spy. I get my facts from direct inside knowledge. 200 UKLI employees ? Slight exageration I think as you well know.
70. Nigel Walter05/12/2006 14:51:04
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
Malcolm
Not sure where you get your facts from but let me detail the number of people by office for you:
London Head Office 87 employees
St Albans Office 11 employees
Hitchin Office 11 employees
Birmingham Office 8 employees
Manchester Team 2 employees
Glasgow Office 75 employees
That is 194 in total so - we have 12 starting in the next 6 weeks, which would put the total to 206.
If you have any issues with the accuracy of what I have said why not come to our offices in London (I will refund your travel expenses) and we'll show you what we do as a business?
71. The Finchampstead Society06/12/2006 09:09:56
Re: Posting 65 - Nigel Walter
We would like The following questions answered regarding the Finchampstead site:
1. Regents Land is a company formed earlier this year and there is a long time yet before Companies House require its first year's auditted accounts have to be available for public inspection. The land at Finchampstead was bought by this company and about 80% of it has been subdivided into small plots and sold to "UKLI's investors".
Who owns Regents Land? Is UKLI paid selling agent's fees/expenses/commission by Regents Land? Do you know what Regents Land's turnover is likely to be in its first year of trading and what its gross and nett profits are likely to be?
2.Please consider the scenario if the whole or part of the land to the North of the high pressure kerosene and gas pipelines crossing the land is "rezoned for development" by Wokingham District Council only.
Are all of the individual plot owners in the "rezoned area" ( who we are told are not participating in a collective investment scheme ) legally bound in some way to share their good fortune with the less fortunate plot owners? If there is a legally binding agreement we would be grateful for the details. If there is not we just cannot understand how UKLI's scheme can be viable.
72. miles hayward06/12/2006 09:41:03
A strong word of warning.! I am in the very unfortunate position of having lost all of my investment in a Land Banking scheme exactly as those described above.
"Land Heritage UK" offered an interesting opportunity to invest in two different sites that appeared to have development opportunities. I researched thoroughly the investment opportunity and was satisfied with the prospective risk/reward profile. The one aspect I did not take into account was that the company and/or their advisors have not thoroughly understood the compliance requirements. Land Heritage were informed in early 2006 by the FSA that they were operating a Collective Investment Scheme and advised them that they legally were obliged to offer to refund investors monies. Following a letter sent out by Land Heritage, 20% of all investors (equating to circa £1,000,000) asked for their monies back. Land Heritage was unable to meet that demand and so subsequently went into "Voluntary liquidation." The total amount of lost monies looks to be around £5,000,000. Following a meeting with the liquidators last Friday it seems extremely unlikely that any investor will see their money back. Whilst I understand fully the risk involved with investing in alternative investment and highly speculative schemes, I feel that there has been an extreme case of negligence on the part of Land Heritage UK. I do believe in the concept of Land Banking and that Land is becoming an increasing valuable commodity with a growing need for housing (as described recently by Kate Barker). HOWEVER, be very very careful about investing without the protection of the FSA and remember you DO NOT get 400% returns without a very very high risk of losing ALL of your capital. There are many many scams out there.
73. Smithy06/12/2006 16:41:55
To: Finchampstead Society,
The UKLI Hitchin, Hertfordshire branch is Portmill House, Portmill Lane, Hitchin. (this is detailed on their website). Regents Land - their accountants are HW Associates registered at the exact same address. Therefore one would assume that UKLI and Regents Land are one and the same company.
Is UKLI paid selling agent's fees/expenses/commission by Regents Land?..
As with some other similar companies, Regents Land may have bought the land under this name then sold the land to UKI to sell. Basically all this means is that they transfer the purchase money of the land from one of their own accounts to another as UKLI and Regents Land are one and the same company (just like Property Spy, Ashwell Land, Burydon Land - all one and the same company owned by one person). Does this make sense ?
74. Nigel Walter06/12/2006 18:05:18
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
'Smithy'
You are quite correct that Regents Land has supplied the land used by UK Land Investments in the last eight months.
Regent's Land is a separate company, with separate ownership that sources and acquires land to a number of businesses and individuals, one of which is UKLI.
Nigel Walter
75. Nigel Walter06/12/2006 19:00:52
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
To answer question 71.
The pipeline was thoroughly researched before aquistion - this is a standard part of our investigations. The land directly above the pipeline cannot be used for building foundations for homes but can be used for roads, public open space and gardens.
However, in the specific case of this site the simplest way for a developer to avoid any issues at all is to use this area as public open space - part of the project for a developer would be to allow up to 50% public open space for use by all local residents and it would make absolute sense to use this area of land.
Any developer valuing any project on a site would equalise out the profit of a land site across the whole site - it is irrelevant to a developer whether an actual area of land is public open space, key worker housing or residential development - it is also irrelevant to any potential investor for the same reason.
For a site of this size, it would be unlikely in the extreme that the small area south of the pipeline would not be allocated, particularly as this is the ideal area for public open space for the local residents to enjoy.
Nigel Walter
76. The Finchampstead Society06/12/2006 23:20:57
Re: postings numbers 74 and 75 - Nigel Walter
We regret but we do not think you have adequately answered our questions and repeat the important ones as follows:-
1. Who actually owns Regents Land and what do you anticipate is its financial performance likely to be in its first year of trading?
2. Is there a binding agreement between all of the plot owners which ensures the site can only be promoted for planning purposes and sold to a developer as a whole and not in parts as you appear to imply?
77. mike k08/12/2006 15:35:23
Anybody purchased a plot in the southeast/kent area, i got in touch with media link from this site, bbc southeast/tv/sunday politics show want info and even want to know if i would be interviewed for the show
Anyone interested, if so e-mail [removed] tel [removed]
78. PropertySCAM08/12/2006 17:49:23
We're impressed with your enthusiam Mike, but you should get permission first before posting details of another person's email address or phone number. We've removed them from your post.
Anyone wishing to participate in media coverage of land banking can leave a comment at this page
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6W5NYM
or send us an email and we'll pass on your details.
79. Cycloneman10/12/2006 17:24:50
The English Land Partnership raises its ugly head yet again.
This time at www.internationallandbanking,com . 0870 445 0480
Yes you have guessed it, same old web site, same old con, same old scam. Try contacting them and you will see that they are still pushing the same old sites. If you are really lucky you may get the opportunity to talk to the silken tongued “Michael Donnan” the client care manager or should I say client deception manager. However I warn you have your handkerchief ready in case his overwhelming sincerity over comes you.
80. Cycloneman12/12/2006 17:49:01
Guilty by Association.
I enclose the text of an email I have sent to [name removed] the well known journalist who operates out of "Presenter.co.uk" who describe themselves as one of the country's leading companies in presenting.
I would appreciate “[name removed]” response to the Following.
I have looked through the list of companies that you have done work for and I am not surprised that you have not mentioned the “English Land Partnership” for which you did a presentation video to appear on their web site. As you no doubt know this outfit as been exposed a number of times as propagating a scam to induce investors to invest in dubious land banking schemes. One of the exposures having been conducted by the BBC.
I now wonder what your attitude is, having been once voted “Financial Journalist of the year” being associated with a company who operate this dubious practice. Also the company being owned by Ian McCallum a discredited director of Alchemy one of the largest pyramid sales companies shut down some years ago by the DTI. This together with the fact that Kevin Jones a convicted fraudster is also involved leaves your judgement in some doubt.
The “English Land Partnership” is now difficult to contact, having disconnected their phones, and refusing to respond to any correspondence. They are however still plying their trade under the guise of International Land Banking so if you access www.internationallandbanking.com you will find the old web site, together with your video inducing the gullible to invest.
Are you happy with your name still being associated with such a company that engages in this form of deception.
I suggest that all ELP investors direct the same question to her either by email [email removed] or by telephone [phone removed] they are located in Gerrards Cross, Buckinghamshire.
81. PropertySCAM12/12/2006 20:20:33
Thanks Cycloneman for your continuing input. We've removed some details from your post for the protection of the individual you name and because we do not agree with your charge of guilt by association.
Land bankers have many suppliers; banks, web designers, communications companies and so on, as well as employees. Is every one of these also a target of your wrath, or might that be better directed towards more constructive ends such as lobbying the FSA, the DTI and the OFT for tighter regulation of land banking?
82. comment posted by [removed]15/12/2006 06:39:34
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
83. bill lloyd17/12/2006 12:46:55
beware of North Oak View, winsford, cheshire,the latest scam to try to take your cash, I met a young indian man who is convinced he will be able to build a house on this agricultural land, I have tried to talk him out of it but these salesmen must be good, I am a builder and I own land closer to the town,and I know it is unlikely ever to be built on, not the last one thousand years,why the next one thousand years?
84. John17/12/2006 14:40:33
Bill. Thanks for your advice. Without taking any side on the issue of Land Banking I beg to differ with your view. Nothing is forever -- except Diamond?. Somewhere that has not been built on for ten thousand years does mean it will not be built on at all. Look at Milton Keynes!! It was built in the last 30 years and still growing.
85. Ian17/12/2006 21:15:40
I purchased a plot of land from Land Heritage UK in 2005 from their Boston Site and have the deeds of the land. LHUK has gone into liquidation and the firm of lawyers Smith& Williamson seem to be sorting the mess out.
Surely we must be able to have some kind of redress against these bandits
86. Cycloneman18/12/2006 18:03:29
Is this site really serious
Suppressing names in my last posting serves no purpose as the information is available at www.presenter.co.uk.
Also I suggest that everyone should go on to www.internationallandbanking.com where they can watch the video in full. Where the lady in question is advocating all that you decry, even standing in front of a site while it is being marked out into individual plots. Also interviewing a Roger Willoughby representing the English Land Partnership.
Yes I agree with lobbying the FSA, the DTI and the OFT for tighter regulation of land banking?. However what I want is invoke some legal action against myself whereby this can further exposed. I have contacted their lawyers who threatened me in the past inviting them to do so now, but I have had no reply.
87. PropertySCAM18/12/2006 20:17:41
Yes, we are serious. And yes, we are aware that the identity of the individual you named may be found elsewhere. Your allegation that this party is in some way guilty, however, was only ever found in your post here.
If you are serious about attracting some form of legal action against you, then:
- Commit your libels somewhere else please
- Drop the alias and post using your real name
But we are at a loss to understand how this can possibly help.
88. Trevor19/12/2006 14:34:12
It's all very well putting YOURSELF in the frame, but what you don't seem to realise, Cycloneman, is that if you commit a libel on this site, the site owner can also be sued as the "publisher" of the libel in the same way that a newspaper publisher is as guilty as the author if he publishes a libelous letter.
It's a bit different in the USA where, in most states, a publisher is regarded as being of the same status as a telephone company - providing the means, but not responsible for what they are subsequently used for.
In the UK, both author and publisher are equally guilty and either - or both - can be sued.
Put yourself in the frame by all means, but not other people.
89. Frank19/12/2006 17:43:24
I have been doing some research on these so-called land investment companies and ran into this site. I am very concerned as my father told me he bought a plot from a group called [removed]
Their website is [removed] The plot he bought is located in Liverpool. After doing some research on the group, I now find out that they have changed their name to [removed], which is now registered in the Isle of Man. Their original head office was located in Liverpool but I found out that office was just a virtual office.
Now, can anyone explain why a company that was registered in the UK all of a sudden decides to register offshore. This is all looking like a big scam to me and trying their hardest to avoid UK regulations.
I asked my father how he was approached and he stated he clicked on a google ad. I found their recent google ads such as [removed] and [removed] , non of which states who they really are. Only when you input your information, you get a call from one of their so called consultants.
They have told my father that planning permission should be in 4-5 years maybe sooner with a return of over 400%+. They have a buy back option which means they will buy back the property from the investors only if planning permission is granted.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I should do to help my father from these scammers? I would really like to get his money back! Do you think we can force them to pay back my father's investment?
90. Phil19/12/2006 19:59:22
It seems to me that you like me are aware by now where the real problem rests. Not with landbanking firms that harness opportunities but with the lack of clear regulation. Landbanking firms are not doing anything illegal. They are presenting investors with facts about an impending housing crisis and how this may spread to greenbelt land to resolve, and the potential for a reclassification of that land. Bundled with planning procedures facing pressure and reform from central government. Bundled with real historical data on land price increases over the past 20 years and the potential huge uplift when planning permission gets granted, if it gets granted. Now, the media has harped on about this housing crisis and so to has many leading politicians. Now, the fact that investors are prepared to pay over inflated prices for that land, due mainly, to media coverage of the population increases and housing shortages, blah, blah, blah... well that's not illegal. That's buyer beware. If I sell you a bottle of wine for £2000 and its only worth £29 and you agreed to pay that price and providing no misrepresentation takes place and real facts are provided that is your problem. Therefore, tell the government to pull its fingers out of where they keep them and regulate the problem once and for all. Otherwise, what you face is an unregulated market with all its perils and risk reward trade offs and inefficient due diligence on the part of prospective investors.
91. Trevor19/12/2006 21:16:47
It is pretty clear that is unlikely to happen Phil.
There was a clause in the Planning & Compulsory Purchase Bill requiring planning permission to be obtained for the subdivision for sale of any parcel of agricultural land of one hectare or less.
It was quiety dropped before the Bill became law in the 2004 Act.
92. PropertySCAM20/12/2006 12:00:26
As this discussion is now so long, we have started a new discussion thread and closed comments in this one.
If you would like to contribute, please do so at the new open comments thread.
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