Greg Mulholland writes to UKLINigel Walter
Managing Director
United Kingdom Land Investments
Berkeley Square House
Berkeley Square
Mayfair
London
W1J 6BD
7th November 2006
Dear Nigel
Thank you for contacting me and for sharing your opinions on the subdivision and sale of undeveloped land as investment opportunities in which UKLI is engaged.
It was useful to hear your perspective on the fly-by-night operations that it is well documented are deliberately mis-selling land, it was interesting that you also want to see this practice outlawed as you feel it brings the ‘industry’ into disrepute.
However, as I made it clear to you when we met, whilst trying to outlaw this deliberate mis-selling is a key part of my campaign, my wider objective is to restrict and/or regulate the entire practice of the subdivision and sale of undeveloped land as investment opportunities. This is something that would of course impact directly on UKLI and any other organisations ability to continue to operate in this sector, so as I said at the time, there is much about which we fundamentally disagree!
Following further discussions and research, I have now come to the conclusion that the best initial way to address this is to bring the practice under the remit of the FSA, possibly as a collective investment, possibly by introducing land as a category of investment that needs to be regulated in the same way as other investments and I am now convinced that the ‘industry’ does need to be regulated by the FSA.
Also, as you know, my Sale of Green Belt Land Bill introduced in Parliament this year which would make it illegal to sell designated Green Belt land on the basis of future development at all. Although, due to the numbers of Private Member’s Bills on the order paper, my Bill did not receive its second reading, this is still an avenue which I will be exploring in other ways.
Clearly, these aims conflict with your own ideas on what measures should be taken to address the current nature and practices of this area of business. Consequently, there is no point in us having any further discussions upon and around this subject and as a result, I would be grateful if you would refrain from suggesting that UKLI are working with me in any way.
Yours sincerely
Greg Mulholland
Member of Parliament for Leeds North West
Mr Mulholland wrote this letter following the use of his name by UKLI in a number of web pages and press releases which seemed to imply that he was working with UKLI to tackle misselling in the land banking industry. In fact, this was not the case.
Most references to Mr Mulholland by UKLI have now been withdrawn, per his request, however a sample still exists here.
In the interest of balance, PropertySCAM is happy to publish UKLI's reply (PDF link) said by Nigel Walter to have been sent by him to Mr Mulholland.
1. Dr S Sabnis04/12/2006 16:42:14
I have invested with ELP in the site called Scholes Meadow in April 06.I have been promised in news letter by Mr Michael Donnan( custmer care) that "the ELP s takin palnning process seriously and the team -particularly Mr Richard Willoughby will foster formidable partenership when negotiating with local authority planning committees."
I have also invested with comapny called Countrywide land holdings ltd at 2nd floor,146-147 St John Street,London EC1V 4PY ph no -0800 389 0316.
I have been carefully following all the articles published in Guardian, money Observer and getting extremely concerned.
I would like to know--
1.have you got any report or evidence about the fraudulant practices carried out by countrywide land holdings?
2.what the governmant is planning to do to protect the public from this illegal practice and
last but not least ,how I can I recover my money from these crooks?
your advise would be most apriciated.
S Sabnis
2. Cycloneman05/12/2006 14:19:06
O what a wicked web they weave
Those of you scammed individuals of the “English Land Partnership” otherwise known as “theelp” know of difficulty of now contacting them. The web sites www.theenglishlandpartnership.com and the www.theelp.com lead nowhere should now try www.elpcity.info. Because what you get the same old website with the Nadine Dereza presentation film.
They now give a contact number of 0800 177 7170 and they still have the same impressive address of 1 Berkely Street, London W1 and enquires to enquires@elpcity.info . If you ring the number you get answered by an outfit calling themselves “Land and Property Group”.
If you access the www.landandpropertygroup.com you find that they give a contact number of 0800 412 5801. Their website then refers to a company called
Portman Land Investments Ltd, 30 Hyde Way,Welwyn Garden City, Herts, Al7 3UQ, telephone 01707 335581, www.portman.uk.net
Now going back to the elpcity website they refer to an associate company called London Land and Property Exchange, 18 Soho Square, London, W1D 3QC telephone 0870 4450 457. Their web site is www.llpx.org (this web site was developed by a company based in Doncaster. Doncaster happens to be where Ian McCallum, Cussins House, Wood Street is based, he is one of the partners of the ELP, is this a coincidence). If you look on this site then you will see that they also refer to working in conjunction with Portman Land Investments.
I have also found another outfit “Leaders In Land”, 34-36 Bracton House, High Holborn, London WC1V 6AE telephone 0207 190 1672 www.leadersinland.com who are also offering some common sites to those of the ELP.
If anyone reads this that can give clarification on the relationships above I am sure that their comments will be welcome.
3. mike k05/12/2006 18:46:48
re; Dr S Sabnis
i have plot at Folkestone through Countrywide Land Holdings 1 year ago
was told by Dannie Williams plot will be worth 10 fold in 3 yrs time, he is such a professional seller and so convincing, had 2 calls last week from another seller same firm, he wanted me to remortguage my house, sell my car anything so he could make sale, wish this site was around then
post comment back of your experience Dr Sabnis if you will, i do not think we will get any sort of refund, do you or anyone else no a good solicitor friend to talk it over with, cheers for now, mike k
4. Trevor26/12/2006 01:56:37
Mike
I am interested in hearing about the steps you took to investigate the claims made for the future development potential of the land before you invested in it.
Dannie Williams was obviously either working for the Vendor, or working as an independent Sales Agent for the Vendor.
On that basis, you surely did not simply accept HIS assurances and opinions of what the future development potential was ?
I am thinking that you may have a case for negligence against whoever advised you that this was a worthwhile investment ....
5. Trevor09/01/2007 02:12:09
REPEAT:
Mike
I am interested in hearing about the steps you took to investigate the claims made for the future development potential of the land before you invested in it.
Dannie Williams was obviously either working for the Vendor, or working as an independent Sales Agent for the Vendor.
On that basis, you surely did not simply accept HIS assurances and opinions of what the future development potential was ? "
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So, Mike .... am I to conclude from your deafening silence that you did EXACTLY that ? That you bought this land based only on assurances from the SELLER about its future development potential and profit potential ? 
Look ... here we have the owner and sponsor of this PropertyScam website trying his damnedest to educate people (at HIS expense!) against "investing" in so-called "plots" that in most cases (and let's be absolutely blunt here) have NO reasonable prospect of planning permission for a dwelling in the foreseeable future, unless one is planning to live to 130, and yet we STILL have people who are prepared to pay God-Knows-How-Many-Times the true current value of the land ... on the SELLER'S assurance that it has future development potential ?
Continuing to be really blunt, that sounds pretty dumb to me !
Why didn't you take independent professional advice about its future development potential before you bought it ? It would have cost you £200-£300 and would have saved you THOUSANDS of pounds because it would have steered you away from that "investment".
Would you buy my S-Type Jaguar (worth no more than £8,000) for £80,000 based on MY assurance that, at some unspecified date in the future, it just might be worth a fortune ?
You wouldn't ? Damn ! I thought I had found a mug !
So, my next question is : Why on earth would you do exactly the same thing with a piece of land ?
Continuing with the bluntness and honesty theme, you don't really have a sensible answer to that question, do you? 
There is a cynical saying that "Sheep are made to be shorn".
I suspect that you have learned a hard (and very expensive) lesson.
6. comment posted by [removed]29/06/2007 15:45:55
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
7. dee29/06/2007 19:01:09
I'm replying to chris barouchi.
Hi chris .
you mentioned propertyspy in your message.
Do you know anything about there operation are they in some way connected to the companies and people you wrote about?
8. comment posted by [removed]11/08/2007 14:32:33
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
9. LINDYLOO20/08/2007 19:55:23
HAS ANYONE HEARD OF LEADERS IN LAND?ARE THEY CONNECTED WITH ELP?WAS RICHARD WILLOUGHBY A PARTNER IN ELP?IS IAN MACALLUM IN SPAIN?HAS ANYONE HEARD OF SOMEONE CALLED 'FLINT' WHO EITHER WORKS OR WORKED FOR ELP?DOES ELP STILL EXIST?, OR IS IT THE LLPX IN DISGUISE?
10. anonymous28/08/2007 04:26:18
hi there,
i know that this may not be 100% related, but any thoughts or comments on land banking in Canada?
11. TAWA01/09/2007 01:11:23
1. I sank my money onto Milford View and am not expecting to see it again but a shimmer pf light came in a letter this week from a CA/barrister called Philip R Pawson. He is gathering opinion on forming a company to put together a recovery plan to create one voice on behalf of Milford plot holders in an attempt to get planning permission or do something else with the land. The idea is good in that it keeps hope alive but as expected it involves set-up/running costs so my fear is that this is a case of throwing good money after bad. Is this another scam on the back of another!
2. Interesting to note that the Milford hospital site will be completing on its sale in September - who know the purchaser may like an option over our 'greenbelt'!
3. Lindyloo asked who Flint is - I am told by a fairly reliable source that he was the initial owner of the Milford site and had options over a large number of the plots. Over time he sold these plots - you may find his name appears on your land registry document you received at the time of purchase. I spoke with him as part of my due dilligence (and I also met up with Richard Willoughby) and was convinced by both that this was a good opportunity not too be missed!
12. bob05/09/2007 13:11:08
I bought a piece of land back in 2004 for £6500 and resigning myself to the sad fact that the money's gone.
Now, I'm getting phone calls from a company called 'Land Strategy' based in Kings Cross. Anyone heard from a guy called Lee Cooper or Anthony James?
How do I get the money back, given land banking is not illegal? I spoke to a member of the Serious Fraud Office and he said to prosecute, I need to prove that ELP sold land fraudulently: i.e. the sale contravened the Trades' Description Act. What else can be done?
Is anyone interested in forming a group to stop these parasites?
To Trevor: your comments are not helpful. Talk about making someone feel shitter than they do already. Hindsight's 20:20 a great thing Trevor. Were you the smug shit at school who rubbed his fingers with glee at the propspect of saying 'i told you so'? We need solutions, otherwise get lost.
bob
13. comment posted by [removed]05/09/2007 15:43:16
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14. JB10/09/2007 13:05:01
I bought land at Milford View and resigend myself to a loss (win a few, lose a few with high risk investments). I too have been contacted by Philip Pawson, but I am sceptical about his credientials which I am now checking with some friends in the legal profession in Leeds. He also seems a bit of a land shark as he is demolishing his current property (1 house) and is planning to build 9 on the same plot!
15. Drain10013/09/2007 11:39:51
Hi Jb,
I have had email contact with Philip Pawson and said that I would be interested in participating in his recovery plan provided that full corporate governance and an independent non-exec director of the company to be set up to buy the land.I do not think that he wants any existing plotholders and I do not like the value to be granted for the plots to be transferred to the company particularly in relation to the cash contribution to be sought from plotowners( eg £1,000 cash contribution and £200 for the land in shares issued, in both cases.In other words the land has virtually no value).
He could run the company for his own ends to maximise his fee income .
I still have some questions for him but did you find out anything further about his background?
16. comment posted by [removed]22/09/2007 16:15:42
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
17. barrat27/09/2007 12:40:58
Hi, i also put my money in Milford View. i am also contacted by P Rawson, barrister. I have heard of leaders in land and am speaking to a Paul Regan. Mr Hakeem Peerbux was working for ELP and is now the MD of leaders in land. To get our return we need to pool together to sell the land to any developer. P Rawson is on the right track. Any more views.
18. CAE09/10/2007 14:45:12
A question for TAWA and others who have been contacted by the barrister named Philip Pawson. I bought a plot at Milford through ELP so am interested in any possible recovery procedure. I would appreciate some contact details for Pawson and any others involved in Milford land purchases. Pawson is registered in Leeds as part of the Institute of Chartered Accountants. I shall also be contacting a solicitor for advice (shame I didn't do that in the 1st place!!)
19. Gerry10/10/2007 16:04:26
Bob, I am interested in what you said about forming a group to try and recover some of this fraudulent investment. I was ripped off over Scholes and had all the glossy literature sent out to me. If you're still interested let's get something going, there's strength in numbers! I would also like to repeat your comments to Trevor, Trevor if all you can say is "I told you so!" you are no more help than a chocolate teapot so why don't you go and gloat over something else you little lump of excretia! Gerry
20. Richard JPW16/10/2007 09:50:06
We are beginning to get some helpful comments recently. What we all want as 'plotholders' is to try to move something forward and not look back.
My question to all the recent contributors is,' Should I part with £900 and the 'title deeds' of Milford View to Mr Pawson?' I am inclined not to until we all get some cast iron reassurances.
Mr Pawson quoted Robert Welch IFA and director of Prospect Financial Solutions Ltd. by saying, 'Mr Pawson is a client of my company and due to his involvement with the Financial Services Authority Money Laundering Committee and his professional capacity as a Barrister and Chartered Accountant, I feel that you have the opportunity to put your best interest in the hands of a very capable and professional individual, who is offering his services to you the plot holders to participate in a recovery plan at Milford view, Godalming, Surrey.'
I also asked if it was possible to get a plotholders forum going and Mr Pawson replied, 'With regard to a forum I think this is not possible in the short term. Plot holders live all over the country and also there are no funds at the moment to hire conference facilities.'
Well, we should get together should we not - conference facilities or not?
He continues,
'With regard to assurances, the transfer of land will be handled by an appointed solicitor and you will not be expected to sign the final transfer until you have the share certificate in your hand. With regards to the cash contribution - your cheque will be made payable to the newly formed company and upon receipt of this you will be allocated your shares.'
In a letter I received this morning, Mr Pawson says, 'I believe that communication between the new company and its shareholders is essential. I will develop and progress your interests in the company and will want to report to you on a frequent basis.'
He goes on,
'I do not envisage needing to raise any more funds from shareholders, but if this is necessary it will only be in circumstances where we are very close to obtaining our ultimate objective of selling the land with planing permission attached.'
That's reassuring. However, he then invites me to send him a cheque for 5% of the cost price of my land holding (£900) payable to the incorporated company 'RecoveryMilfordLtd.'
Has anyone done a search on this?
Moreover, I also have to send the title deeds to him to pass to the appointed solcitor. who will deal with the transfer. Why should I send the title deeds directly to him and not to the appointed solicitor. also, why should I send him money directly? Surely, this should be held in some sort of escrow account?
Any helpful advice on any or all of these questions would be most helpful. However, I would not want to discourage others from joining in with his rescue plan, if it is a genuine attempt. There are intelligent and talented people out there in the same position as all of us mere mortal plotholders. We need to get some sort of concerted action going through a well organised group, I suggest, before we part with any more money.
21. 1903Lee18/10/2007 10:32:39
Unfortunately, in a moment of weakness i parted with monies for a plot of land via Countrywide Land Holdings. My question is how do i get my money back and what steps should i be undertaking? Is there a body to report to and what are the success rates of gettin the monies back?
22. Rob Welch22/10/2007 12:36:22
Hi
My name is Rob Welch and I live in Milford. My attention was brought to this site on receipt of an email from someone who claimed to have been given my email address by Pawson. Can I stress that I am NOT the Robert Welch IFA quoted above (incidentally a quick search of IFAs and Companies House finds no trace of Prospect or Recovery Milford.... draw your own conclusions on that one.) Sorry to be stroppy but if I am linked or indentified as having any connection with the land bank scam then I would have to take action for libel. If any one has contact details for Pawson then please post them here and I'll get my solicitors to follow him up on that one.
23. TAWA22/10/2007 19:11:10
Re MilfordRecovery: I have run checks at companies house for Milford Recovery Ltd and Philip Pawson as a director. Neither are registered/exist. So who/what is it and who are the directors who will preside over this phantom ''company''? Mr Pawson (The Chantry, 412 Selby Road, Leeds, LS15 9BQ. Tel 01132608006). I think we should seek advice and appoint development consultants to discuss the reality of getting permission to develop before setting up the company and sinking £1000 into something else we know little about (Pawsons rescue plan). Having said that - with McCallum holding 2/3rd of the plots aren't we limited in what we could do anyway?
24. DAT23/10/2007 20:20:43
Re TAWA on MilfordRecovery. I think that Philip Pawson has only proposed setting up the company if sufficient plotholders agree to pool their plots in that way. If a company is formed it will need funds to actively persue our goal. But having been taken in so effectively by the smooth talking of the likes of Michael Donnan we need to be sure that Philip Pawson does not have an ulterior motive. Trust or otherwise will develop as we progress but right now we must have conmirmation of Philip Pawson's good intentions.
Regarding McCallum's holdings - McCallum is appearing at a bankruptcy hearing and Philip Pawson has offered to attend with a view to purchasing McCallum's plots from the trustees. This should be at a very good price and could be very lucrative if anything like planning permision is achieved.
25. Robert Welch26/10/2007 17:37:04
This site has been brought to my attention, possibly by one of its subscribers, however I thought that I would respond accordingly. I am Robert Welch Director and Independent Financial Adviser of Prospect Financial Solutions Ltd, and contrary to "Rob Welch's" comments, our Company Registration Number is clearly listed on Companies House. I will add that I have no involvement in the "unfortunate" position that many of the above are experiencing nor any intended recovery plan. I have only been able to offer a limited "character reference" for Mr Pawson based on our relationship as IFA and client. If you use the following link, you will note that Mr Pawson is listed as a Member in The Institute Of Chartered Accountants Annual report for 2006.
I have been happy to discuss the situation with individuals in the abscense of their own Independent Financial Advser, however upon this discovery and written association I am withdrawing my services as an IFA to any individuals associated with this situation. However I do wish everyone concerned all the very best in the endevours.
http://www.icaew.com/review/pdf/ICAEW_Annual_Review_2006.pdf
26. Drain10031/10/2007 11:44:19
I have been in regular contact with Mr Pawson since late August 2007 about his proposals and after many exchanges of email returned my provisional acceptance to his recovery plan subject to( and I quote) :
"1.The company adopts an appropriate level of corporate governance.
2.Your (ie Mr. Pawson's) contract with the company is indepently reviewed and signed off as fair and reasonable.
3. Appoint an independent director( non-executive) of the company."
I was away for 2 weeks and on return received his letter dated 15 october requesting the monies, etc so wrote to him as follows:
"Thank you for your letter which I have just received on return from an overseas trip.
Would you please tell me how many plotholders have accepted your offer and who is the second director of RecoveryMilford Ltd.?
Thank you."
His reply was:
"I am not willing to say how many plot holders have so far accepted for 2 reasons. Primarily those who have accepted have done so in good faith and without the information that you are seeking. Secondly, today's number is irrelevant in that acceptances are coming in every day.
I am the only Director at the moment. When I identify the need for further expertise - maybe an expert in the planning field - I will consider whether he should be appointed a Director. I will not appoint a further Director just for the sake of it."
Having said this Mr Pawson may be the only medium term solution for those who are not prepared to wait until interest is shown by a developer.When the adjoining site --the old hospital--is developed ( and nothing will happen until then) the Milford View plots will become the focus of lots of interest.
Mr Pawson worries me and his attitude in some of our correspondence shows an unfortunate level of arrogance and dismissiveness of plotholders.
Any news or views from others?
Drain100
27. PropertySCAM31/10/2007 12:15:03
RECOVERYMILFORD LTD - Company No. 06410368 - was incorporated on 26th of October this year (only 5 days ago, which would explain why Rob Welch - comment 22 - could not find the company registration on the 22nd of October).
As a private company it is only required by law to have at least one director (public companies must have at least two), but it must also have a company secretary.
That company secretary cannot be the same person as the only director.
You might ask who that company secretary is and you'd presumably want to see the business plan too before investing - basic due diligence.
28. Secret Agent 31/10/2007 20:12:01
I really feel the need to enlighten you.
Yes ELP are now trading as London Land & Property Exchange Ltd.
Now LLPEX
Yes Kevin Jones, Steven Quayle and Ian McMullan are there. not in Spain
Don't trust Mr Pawsen, he sounds like like one of there associates.
Remember these guys have made millions, and run an international outfit. They can get anyone to do anything they want with the promise of money. Here and aboard.
I'm sorry to hear about all of your mis-fortune and hoped i have helped a little with a piece of the jigsaw.
Good Luck
29. Hindsight 10101/11/2007 01:02:20
It is good to know there are similiar educated investors out there, scammed by the likes of ELP and Townsfield Investments.......
I have been contacted by Mr. Pawson and after much deliberation and communication with him decided to jump onboard......it seems a small price to pay to try to get some reward on one of my so called investments.
Surely rather than slating the likes of Mr. Pawson off who appears to have the investors interests in mind, shouldn't we be more worried that the old gang at ELP are supposedly still trading under another name, as Secret Agent suggests. When are these guys going to get what they deserve, a long time behind bars......
I continue to receive mail, phone calls and emails trying to get me to invest further. I rue that fateful day when I typed in those keywords into my browser - 'Buy English Land'........
The bottom line is we all were suckered into making decision we would not have taken if greed did not cloud our judgement.......
30. payneri08/11/2007 15:40:28
I too am an investor at Milford and was approached by Mr Pawson? Does anyone know whether he is an investor in Milford? Has anyone physically gone and met Mr Pawson? My e-mail correspondence has been kurt to say the least and not particularly forthcoming with information. I too would like to understand how many investors have taken up this option. I do not believe that by investing in the company we are selling our plots to the company - rather forming a company to represnt the plot owners.
From my perspective the integrety and honesty of Mr Pawson is the key. What is his reason for doing this?
31. Drain10009/11/2007 18:09:02
Mr Pawson is not a Plotholder and he would not tell me ( see my respose above of 31 October) how many Plotholders have signed up to his proposals.His interest is as a business proposition .
He told me he that his concern is that the land valuation (at the low valution for the proposition) may be overvalued.Thus agreeing to his scheme you are putting up expenses of 5x the land cost!!
He is an opportunist but may create some value for shareholders but I was unable to find out what he will be charging shareholders for the work he will be doing.
I think that I will wait for the Government White Paper due later next year to indicate areas of preferred development---which is what a lot of developers are doing.
32. Red squirrel15/11/2007 15:17:26
I am about to part with a cheque for £900 to Mr. Pawson in return for shares in his newly formed company. My concern is not so much for the £900 if the scheme doesn't work out but more for the loss of my plot which will merely become a shareholding. What if the company goes bust, I no longer have an individual plot and presumably shares worth nothing? Any views on this? However, I don't want to poor cold water on Mr. Pawson's scheme; his company seems to be the only genuine way of creating a single voice when it comes to negotiations in the future. What are you other plot holders going to do? Sit on the fence and wait presumably? It seems to me that the more individual plot holders there are who don't join the scheme, the more complicated negotiations might be in the long run. So for me, either I do nothing and my plot is worth nothing because planning permission is never going to happen unless someone gets their fingers out, or I do something and get a chance of it actually making money - the original intention of us all - remember?
33. comment posted by [removed]16/11/2007 10:53:14
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34. Drain10018/11/2007 14:49:32
David,
My recommendation is an unreserved "don't touch it".
Would I invest in a company based in America whose website only attracts one hit on a googlesearch ( the website is registered in Delaware, USA) and does not have a contact address on said website? I leave the answer and decision to you.
35. comment posted by [removed]18/11/2007 18:05:38
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
36. comment posted by [removed]23/11/2007 23:56:48
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
37. comment posted by [removed]26/11/2007 08:26:27
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38. Red squirrel27/11/2007 11:58:07
I am told by one of the sales staff at the London Land and Property Exchange that they are in no way related to the English Land Partnership contrary to what Secret agent says above - on 31/10. I am also told that plotholders at Milford have all been contacted by Beaver Homes who are the developers who have an option on that site. However, seemingly I am the only one who had not been contacted. Why? Have any others reading this had contact from Beaver Homes?. I am also told that Beaver Homes have options on the xELP site at Scholes in West Yorkshire. Any plotholders on this site had anything from Beaver Homes? Here's another question, has anybody converted their plotholding into shares in Recovery Milford - Phillip Pawson's company. If so, what guarantees have they had that proceeding down this route is more likely to get results. Why should anybody do this, if it is true that Beaver Homes are taking things forward at these 2 plots? I don't know about anybody else but the silence out there is deafening. it can't be only me that wants to get to grips with these problems.
39. comment posted by [removed]27/11/2007 22:52:31
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40. Black Knight28/11/2007 09:22:50
Re: #39
Saj,
As far as I understand it, after a visit by the DTI, PP is making a buyback or "Fast Track" to Hounslow site via the Singapore entity before closing down the UK company for breeching the FSA rulings on CIS. It is only applicable to investors who is a UK resident.
If you resides in the UK, stick to your guns. Contact the liquidators if you have not receive the "offer" letter from PP. They must comply with each and every UK investors otherwise they will be in breech. If there is no action from you within 6 months, the assumption will be that you are happy to keep the land.
My concern is the other 80+% investors from overseas.
And what about investors that purchased the other sites (Nefferton..)??
Black Knight.
41. Drain10028/11/2007 10:57:53
Hi Red squirrel
I received letters from Beevor Homes( a subsidiary of A J Upton Homes Limited) with regard to their preferential options through LLPX Ltd for plots Weybridge and Kensworth but not in respect of Milford View. However, based on further contact with them wrt to Milford during September it looks like they did write to plotholders earlier in 2007 and appear to have preferential options also thru' LLPX.
Please note my earlier postings above on Milford and my response to Mr Pawson. If you send your email address to me at adrian.nurse@talk21.com I will send you a scanned copy of the letters from Beevor Homes.
Regards, Drain100
42. saj29/11/2007 22:45:04
Hye Black Knight
Thankyou very much for your comments much appreciated, I am pleased to say I am a UK resident and have written to Grant Thornton of not receiving letter from PP.
I also feel sorry for the overseas investors and do hope they get their money back from PP.
I have received about more than 50 emails from disappointed PP customers, they want their money back from PP due to the fact PP have not informed them of their new contact details, were promised that their plots will get planning permission with a couple of years.
I and many other customers of PP were promised that our land will get planning permission within a couple of years. In 2006, PP's main website was(down) and is still down www.profitableplots.co.uk "customers started to panic", PP's Main UK telephone numbers are unavailable "customers now think, PP have gone bankrupt, without informing them". Customers then start to post on finance/land/plot forums, "Only Wanting Answers", In Why is PP not answering their phone calls? Why is PP's website down? Why havent PP informed them of their new contact & phone numbers! PP's team come across these website posts and threaten the web owners and some of their customers with lawsuit etc, the forums owners had no choice but to delete all of those posts that provided informative information on PP.
Most important for any landbanking company is to Keep Their Cusotmers Updated and Informed on their plots and on the company! Unfortunately PP promised to do this but did not adhere to this.
Thanks for reading Saj
43. DAT01/12/2007 18:04:36
Hi Red Squirrel and Drain100,
I have 1 letter from Beevor Homes & Co dated 27th March 2007 regarding a plot at Weybridge but nothing for plots at Milford or Scholes.
The letter is a basic computer generated single page wanting an option to purchase my plot at a 10% discount if planning is granted.
I contacted their agents (LLPEX) as suggested but got a negative response and have done nothing since. There has been no other contact from them or their agents.
There has been no mention of Beevor Homes in Mr Pawson's communications.
44. Drain10004/12/2007 11:19:04
DAT
Have recently confirmed that no letters from Beevor Homes went out to Milford View plotholders.
Based on investigations that I have done Beevor Homes is NOT a registered company ( no record in Companies House) and there are no google hits to indicate any news or activity.Its parent company is "A J Upton Ltd" and is registered at Companies House but as had partial exemption for its last accounts suspect is either near dormant or trivial in
size.
MY CONCLUSION..either a scam or more likely a small opportunistic developer with limited track record.Anyway not worth our consideration.
45. DAT06/12/2007 19:22:28
Drain100
Many thanks you have confirmed my suspitions.
I intend to go along with Mr Pawson, his recent letter has indicated a cut off date for founding shareholders of 14th December and I now like the fact that my plot does not go into the company pot bur rather the company takes an option to purchase as and when.
Regards DAT
46. Red squirrel07/12/2007 12:24:34
Hello DAT,
I agree with your comment about PPawson's initiative. I was worried that I was parting with my plot in return for shares which may never be worth anything. But that is not now the case. The option to purchase allows for the uplift in value, so we are guaranteed a minimum return with the prospect of much more.
red squirrel
47. comment posted by [removed]11/12/2007 13:35:58
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
48. Drain10011/12/2007 17:24:14
To john wright
You are not suggesting or implying any connection with Mr Pawson or/and RecoveryMilford?
49. comment posted by [removed]19/12/2007 13:36:15
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
50. Sharaf Shah27/12/2007 08:49:55
Hi There
I purchased two plots from Hayden James in their proposed development
Roman view Ajkeman street Blackthorn Bicester Oxfordshire.I am working overseas and until now I was not aware of the problem.
At present I am not sure what is going on and would very much appreciate if some can provide information about this specially the other plot owners of the same development.
Any help please.
Shah
51. Groom05/01/2008 13:26:02
I have just received a letter from Phillip Pawson regarding Scholes.
Has anyone else received one and if so what are your thoughts on it ?
Has anyone involved with Milford View got an update on that and how it's proceeding ?
I would be grateful to know before deciding what I do about this.
Many Thanks,
Groom
52. TAWA05/01/2008 16:45:11
Re Milford: 1. I have read here that a case could be made to get the deposit back that was paid by credit card to ELP. Has anyone (un)successfully gone down this route? 2. I proposed to Mr Pawson that we hold a meeting of the plot holders in central London - he dismissed this idea. I am note sure how many holders are reading this BB but would anyone take this up if it was offered? 3. when I purchased the land the joint vendors were IMc himself and Richard Ian Flint. I do not know who RIF is but this may cause a problem if he is joint holder with IMc of the remainder of the plots which Mr Pawson proposes to purchase on IMc's bankrupcy. 4. The company secretary for RecoveryMilford is Mrs Pawson.
Finally the other questions I have are:
5. Where has the value per acre of £750,000 come from which Mr Pawson has proposed?
6. Mr McCallum's 50% ownership means he still owns ~10 acres of land or 113 of the proposed plots. So if 113 plots were sold at an average price of £20,000. If you are asking all 75 of these owners to contribute 5% to the company that means the company will have cash of £113,000. Why is so much required at this stage?
7. Would it not be best to pay in enough to have a professional assessment done with perhaps a meeting with the local council to assess the chances of progress and success? Otherwise we are investing so much into a plan that is heavily dependent on:-
- ''it is anticipated that Mr McCallum will be made bankrupt;
- it is hoped that the company can negotiate with the trustee in bankruptcy;
- the land is unlikely to be of interest to any other purchaser'',
and has no fall back position.
8. Mr McCallum's bankruptcy hearing was in November. What is the progress and what is the expected time period for bankruptcy? And more importantly has the company registered an interest in the purchase of the land? And if so, the developments/chances of success?
9. Mr McCallum held the land in joint names with Richard Flint. How do you propose approaching Mr Flint to sell his share?
10. The land has been divided and sold as specific plots. Mr Pawson says that it would be possible to proceed in his plans without all the plot owners - but how can this be? Example: several owners who do not get on board own the plots in the middle of the land, or other vital areas? How do you propose tackling this?
11. I have no guarantee that the company will purchase my plot. There is an option/right for the company to purchase my plot but that gives me no certainty. Will there be a clause that says that if the land is sold that each and every plot will be purchased by the company?
12. As sole director of the company - what can/can Mr Pawson do with/without the approval of the shareholders?
13. How many shares will be issued and once subscribed will any there be any other shares issued that may dilute the plotholders shareholding?
14. I would need to know that the only shareholders are and will be the original plot owners and shares have been issued equally based on the value of the land.
I have put questions 5-14 to Mr Pawson in early December but have not had a reply.
53. JennyR07/01/2008 10:20:24
Dear all
Over the past couple of years I too purchased plots through ELP in Scholes, Wombourne and Kensworth.
Received same letter from Beevor Homes with regard to Kensworth but not the other plots, and in the hope of receiving something back from this mess have agreed to sell at minus 10% after planning has been granted.
Last Saturday received letter from Philip R Pawson and am now more confused than ever after reading all letters on this page, so wondered if anyone had approached their own local MP for any help or guidance. As many others have stated, it does feel a bit like throwing good money after bad, whereas at least with the Beevor Homes option, you don't pay any more out!!
Have thus far received nothing at all about the Wombourne plot - can't wait to find out who gets on the bandwagon for that one.
Personally I do not like the tone of Pawson's letter, it can almost be classed as threatening to anyone who does not take part, and then there's the password business and reference to keeping the contents confidential and to not disclose anything to anyone else!!!
Those of you that had plots at Milford View that accepted, how are things progressing, have you received your password etc yet or is it now moving really slowly if at all now that you have parted with more cash??
Good luck to all in recouping funds
Jenny
54. sos07/01/2008 11:47:16
i purchased some land from Countrywide land holdings in 2006 and have yet to see a return. does anyone know how i can attempt to retrieve my money. Wish i had discovered this website some time ago before i parted with my money.
55. TAWA08/01/2008 22:43:23
See my posting (52) above dated 5/1/08. This was Mr Pawson's reply:
''your suggestions on how I should run this company have not been sought and are of no value.
Many of your questions have been answered in my FAQ and I have nothing more to add. If you have an alternative to my recovery plan please pursue it; as for me and the other plot owners we will proceed whether you join or not.
You will no doubt feel that this is a harsh reply but just because I invite you to join the recovery scheme does not mean that I have to respond to every question of detail that comes from the top of your head. You clearly have not embraced the scheme in the way that others have and I will therefore remove you from my database.''
56. JG909/01/2008 14:34:57
Unfortunately, I too was naive enough to purchase land from ELP at Milford. Mr pawson approached me some months ago, and in reply I asked may questions which he either would not answer or answered tending to avoid the issue. I did not actually find him very professional and he appeared to take offence of some of the questions being asked! I decided that his proposals were not sound and his lack of an effective response implied something sinister in the plot. Recently, I have once again been contacted to see if i might reconsider my position but my stance remains the same.
As other have suggested, I believe the most effective route forward would be to have a 'plot holders' meeting. Mr Pawson should attend this if he is pressured by several plot holders especially if some are already his existing shareholders in his recovery company, this is his duty as a director of the company. I certainly intended to pursue this course of action with him, but he has refused this request previously for some absurd reason (one of the main reasons to doubt his intentions). If I can suggest all plot holders mail or ring him accordingly then it will be interesting to see his response.
NB His last correspondence to me advised that a chartered accountants in Leeds, Ford Campbell Freedman have been appointed to his company and I wonder whether anyone has checked them out, I intend to do so in the next few days.
57. JennyR14/01/2008 12:22:33
Hi all again
On further reflection, the only recognised legal body mentioned anywhere that just might be able to help in confirming if Mr. Pawson is legitamate or not, in my humble opinion, is the FSA.
Does anyone else feel it might be worth contacting them and explaining the situation and asking their advice???
cheers
Jenny
58. comment posted by [removed]15/01/2008 05:08:21
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
59. Drain10015/01/2008 17:20:37
JennyR
Please see post number 44 for my view on Beevor Homes.You won't pay out anything but doubt if this will go anywhere.Beevor Homes is not even a limited company, although it is associated with AJ Upton, a limited company which is a near dormant entity.
Regards,
Drain
60. Groom17/01/2008 17:49:48
Jenny I've spoken with the FSA but they are not allowed to comment on individuals.
61. vikash18/01/2008 05:18:28
Hey all, i bought 2 plots from elp one in scholes and one in kensworth, i am in australia but recieved a fax from philip R pawson regarding the problems for the plot in scholes. I also recieved a letter from beaver homes 6 months ago regarding the plot in kensworth. Now is beavers a scam just like the rest of the organisation. What is every one else doing????
62. comment posted by [removed]19/01/2008 11:27:47
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
63. comment posted by [removed]23/01/2008 16:16:29
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
64. comment posted by [removed]01/02/2008 16:54:02
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
65. DAT02/02/2008 11:19:45
Hi vikash
Beaver Homes seems to be a ELP red herring and therefore a nonentity.
I am going with Mr Pawson who, to me, seems to be going about the problem professionally. There are many risks but that was always the name of the game.
66. comment posted by [removed]20/02/2008 14:03:09
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
67. harry23/02/2008 20:36:55
Hi Gaz, Blacknight et al,
I have recently recieved TR1 forms to sign and return to PPL for Colchester plots
I am reluctant to return without further advice, as this effectively will tranfer ownership back to PPL before I recieve any money (TR1 states that 11,500 has been recieved) - should solicitors and ecrow accounts not be involved?
Gaz, did you just follow their standard process and forms?
Regards
Harry
68. Jim Gourlay23/02/2008 21:03:05
I have plots in KENSWORTH and WEYBRIDGE, both bought in early 2006 from yes ELP and costing 20K and 10K respectively.
Eventually paperwork/deeds progressed after over 1year albeit had to pay 240 extra for WEYBRIDGE as BROWNS, SOlICITORS had ceased handling the ELP account?
One year later PORTMAN approached me re buying a plot in MAIDSTONE, KENT which they said they would be developing themselves in 5 years. They passed themselves off as developers. Tinking this a cast iron investment I broke into my invesrment funds and bought a plot for 9K
Shortly afterwards, last year, I received a letter from LLEXP, acting for PORTMAN,and expressing interest in my WEYBRIDGE plot. My reaction was positive since PORTMAN had passed themselves off as developers. This offer was withdrawn by PORTMAN as apparently few of the plot owners for site were interested
Shortly afterwards last March an offer came in again from LLEXP for Weybridge but this time acting for (note spelling) BEEVOR HOMES.
Strangely circa the same time a similar offer came in for my KENSWORTH plot.
Again I had some optimism that something was happening.
However I found it difficult to trace BEEVOR homes and was assured by LLEXP they were a very reliable company and a subsiduary of A J UPTON.
Never heard anything , apart from a Xmas card, from LLEXP.
This month I contacted LLPEX to see if BEEVOR were progressing their offer and they could not give me an answer.
They offered to put me in touch with A J UPTON but as I was sceptical I tried to contact him by Web and only reference I could find was under "SCAMS".
I confronted LLEXP with my findings and as to what my land is worth and have heard no more.
Contacted a lawyer found on internet and he said oh no not ELP. He said I had no hope of getting any return. He also said that the SFO(SERIOUS FRAUD OFFICE) has known about these shady dealings for more than 3 years and have done nothing. This surely is a gross diservice to the British Public?
Make no bones about it ELP,LLPEX,PORTMAN,BEEVOR HOMES and A J UPTON are synonomous with each other.
I have contacted "BBC WATCH DOG" but have heard nothing.
Just what we , the GREAT BRITISH PUBLIC, now do, I despair.
I would like to add I am retired and 39K is a major amount of money to myself. I entered this in good faith with eyes wide open as I thought it might solve some of my short term financial problems.
It's easy for some pompous and enlightened people who have not been stung to make self conceited comments about our misfortunes. If they are so wise perhaps they surely they could direct their energy in giving advice to put an end to these SCAMS.
.
69. Black Knight26/02/2008 07:41:38
Harry,
You need to sign on the TP1 and get your signature verified. Retain a copy for future reference and return the signed and verified original to PP.
Once the transfer is completed at the land registry (PP’s responsibility) Grant Thornton should contact you for your refund cheque.
If you do not complete the process, how are you going to get your money back? In this instance it will be assumed that you are happy to keep your plot.
Good luck.
Black Knight.
70. comment posted by [removed]26/02/2008 12:45:12
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
71. Nic27/02/2008 10:49:55
Have been offered the Scholes/Recovery option but would like feedback on how theMilford/Recovery is working out in practice. Philip Pawson informed me yesterday that McCallums creditors rejected his land holdings and that bankruptcy looms. Does this mean a liquidator is appointed and it may take some time to now get these plots to market? Anyone out there that can enlighten me?
72. nicky29/02/2008 15:39:38
Oh have just found out today that my pension investments seem to be a scam! Got plots at wombourne and Gt Kingshill...total outlay£17,500. Finally got the title deeds to both this week and when trying to reach any one for information found all tel nos no longer in operation. Bought originally from ELP
Have had letter from Beevor Homes in March 07 and Portman in Nov 06. What do I do now...Can each plot group get together and find out what the future holds for each area? Any advice and information gladly welcome.
73. Paul Holmes03/03/2008 01:58:54
Purchased Wellands Lane Scholes land from ELP in 2006. Did some checking but caught the same cold as everyone else.
Tempted an threatened by the tone on Philip Pawson who I could not check out.
Good money after bad seeems to be one of the trends on this site. I have no judgement to be fair. Originally tempted by Pawson, now feel there is little advantage in buying the shares.
So my bit of land is probably going to encourage wild flowers and butterflies.
Were we all caught by greed?
74. Anon13/03/2008 21:56:43
Hi,
I used to work for the English Land Partner or ELP as a Land Broker. They buy their 'Brown' field sites for around 5K per acre and sell it at anything upto about 120K per acre, having done absolutely nothing to it. They gather a few stats from national papers and government figures and twist them to fit the sale. This info in the hands of good salesmen (me at one time) provides a VERY convincing argument in favour of land and its very hard to find any statistics which can counter their argument. The real problem lies with the actual people who set these landbanking companies up, they are just in it for a quick and VERY LARGE profit.
I met two salesmen who had made over a million pounds in commission in less than a year. YES, over 1,000,000 in commission for THEMSELVES after ELP had taken their share, which was normally between 70 - 90% of the total sale price.
Landbanking itself is something all the house builders and supermarkets do and profit from, in the very long term. It could also work for small, individual investors but only when a respectable, professional landbanking company starts selling land, transparently and with guarantees that they are in for the LONG term. ELP are not that type of company and if you have bought with them and now cant contact them try London Land and Property Exchange at www.llpex.net which is their new guise. They are still owned by convicted fruadster Kevin Jones and I would be extremely surprised if any of their sites ever gain planning permission. None of the people working for these companies own any land themselves, they dont sell it to friends or family but because of the unbelievable commission they have buried their guilt and convinced themselves that what they are doing is an honest living.
The idea is a great one but until it is regulated in some way, i would advise everyone to stay away.
75. JG925/03/2008 12:48:10
I have spent quite a bit of time and money trying to look further into Mr Pawson and attempt to validate his proposals. Information, as already highlighted by several others, is sparce to say the least. The only sensible bitsof information, which he fails to answer questions about are i) why is he involved - he is not a plot holder as he has indicated, and ii) his argument that he can develop the land without all of the plotholders involved and 'signed up' does not hold water. Land develpers I have spoken to have indicated that no developer would likely be interested unless the whole land plot was available. With individual land plots scattered around the whole plot this only compounds the problems for any plans etc..
On this basis Mr Pawson needs to 'come clean' if he is to be taken seriously, he has tended to be very 'guarderd' in what information he offers which in truth is not in the interest of his shareholders which is his duty as an executive officer of the company.
76. LINDA REAY16/04/2008 15:00:06
I was sold land by ELP at Great Kingshill High Wycombe. I have today received a letter from Philip R Pawson asking me to participate in a recovery plan. The letter states that Ian McCallan who was trading as The English Land Partnership has been forbidden to continue his business as he has been trading illegally. He also says the FSA are currently considering bringing a prosecution against McCallum. He also states McCallum was declared bankcrupt last month in the high court. Are there any more Great Kingshill buyers out there and what are you going to do in regard to Pawson and his plan. Just an after thought how did Pawson get the names and addresses of plot holders?
77. LizP16/04/2008 17:34:35
Like Linda, I own a plot at Great Kingshill and have received the same letter today from Mr. Pawson. Would like to know what others are doing, but it seems it may be a way to salvage something from this mess - though I too wondered how he'd got my details.
78. nicky 18/04/2008 22:39:29
Am a Kingshill and Wombourne site owner sold by ELP. Not heard from Mr Pawson yet but want to register my name here for any joint venture.
79. Cyndot19/04/2008 16:35:30
I too have received a letter from Philip Pawson re my plot at Kingshill and am consulting a solicitor about what to do next. I think it would be useful to work as a group, so Pawson's offer is interesting, but has anyone from the earlier schemes got any information on progress so far?
80. CI21/04/2008 14:53:10
I have also received a letter from Pawson re my holding at GreatKingshill.Having read previous comments I am very sceptical about Pawson.What I don't like is:-
1.He is the only Director,no mention of a company secretary.No independant Director.No business plan.
2.He will not meet plotholders at the other sites.
3.No character references.Arrogant manner.Very guarded with information.
4.He says under FAQ that large areas of the site can be ignored.This cannot be correct.If several individual plotholders don't register and their holdings are all in different positions I can't believe a sale could occur.
The way forward has to be for Pawson to meet all plotholders,agree a business plan and allow a plotholder to be a director to represent our interests.Or for one of us to write to the land registry to try to obtain details of all plotholders and then to arrange a meeting ourselves.It will take time but the land has to have value-we are not creating anymore and it is in a good location.I would be happy to get involved if others will and try and resolve this ourselves.Any interest.
81. Karen21/04/2008 16:07:52
My partner and I have received the same letter from Philip Pawson re the Kingshill site. We have reservations as to the true intentions of Philip Pawson, whilst it does sounds like a good idea and something needs to be done. I have contacted the Land Registry in Leicester and they have informed me that it is possible to get the names and address's of the other plot owners by 1st requesting a "search index map" of the plots your interested in - which is free of charge, then with this information you can search each individual plot for it's owner at a cost of 3 per search. I have requested a search index map today, my partner and I have three plots between us, so when the information comes back there's perspectively 184 searches of the 187 plots to be done at a cost of 3 each, that's a total of 552. Whilst this is alot less than the 5% of purchase price that Philip Pawson is requesting, if anyone has any idea's as to how we could share this cost, that would be great, we could at least contact other genuine plot owners and arrange a meeting. I'll keep you posted.
Cyndot, would you be happy to share the information you receive from the solicitor's?, it'll be useful to know where we stand legally and if Ian McCallum still has an option over our land following his bankruptcy as mentioned in Philip Pawson's letter .
82. Sue22/04/2008 12:40:13
Hi
I have also been sent a letter from Philip Pawson regarding Kingshill. Although I wish to recover my investment, I am sceptical about his scheme. I do not see how he can go ahead unless all plot holders agree. If anyone has any information I would love to hear from them.
Thanks
83. Selina22/04/2008 14:47:38
I too have had a letter from Mr Pawson, and to be honest I don't know which way to turn, rather a case of once bitten twice shy, If we could between all the plot owners sort something out surely that would be better, I have plots at kensworth, Milford,Wombourne and Kingshill. I'm getting really fed up with 'promising letters from these invisible companies', don't any of these people realise we all feel stupid enough already, without adding insult to injury. If it is possible to get all the plot holders names then we could group together and approach the development companies ourselves.
What bothers me about this Philip Pawson is what happens to those who don't get involved,if he was successful,a developer won't buy odd bits of a field? I invested quite alot into this land banking at the time, and now I'm not financially in a brilliant position to let anymore money go unless I have some guarantees. I am open to ideas, HELP !
84. Selina22/04/2008 15:19:21
karen,I am sure everyone involved would much appreciate being contacted by you to get us all together, I've got 4 of those plots your looking for,how can I contact you direct.
85. Karen24/04/2008 18:06:40
I've received a response from the Land Registry at Leicester, they are happy to do the search but only the first 10 are free and from there on it costs 4 each, I am thinking of going ahead and requesting 10 searches starting at A1, is anyone else interested in doing the same?
Selina, thanks for you comments, I too would like to get together but I don't know how to suggest we do that safely, unless we agree a meeting place where anyone interested can turn up with prove of ID ie Passport, and there Title Deed for there plot, what do you think?
86. LizP26/04/2008 15:37:16
Re Mr Pawson's letter about Great Kingshill, he asks us to register our interest (without obligation) by the end of April. Are any of you going to do that? Selina, if you have a plot at Milford were you previously contacted by Mr Pawson about that site, and what happened?
87. Selina28/04/2008 08:58:26
Hi Karen, and LizP
Im still trying to get my Milford View Land registered so Pawson didn't have my details, I contacted him to say I have land there and he then sent me a letter asking for 5% etc and told me to make sure I got the land registered asap. Just waiting for the solicitors to get that sorted. Pawson didn't say he was making any progress or anything so I don't know. I am sending the 'showing interest letter' back to him,but thats it at the moment. karen if I said see 71 to you that may help as far as kingshill is concerned. I do believe we have got to have contact amongst ourselves somehow.
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