FSA information on land bankingYour rights
Unauthorised collective investment schemes are not covered by the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS). However, if you have entered an agreement to participate in a Landbanking scheme which is an unauthorised collective investment scheme, you may have a statutory right to recover your money and compensation for any consequent losses. This is because agreements which an unauthorised person enters into while operating, advising on or arranging for persons to participate in a collective investment scheme cannot necessarily be enforced. You should contact the operator of any such scheme and/or a legal adviser to find out about your rights.
There is also a UK hotline number for you to call to report any land banking scheme which you believe may be an unauthorised collective investment - 0845 606 1234.
If calling from outside the UK, call +44 20 7066 1000 (FSA main switchboard).
Link: FSA information on land banking
See also: Money Made Clear - Landbanking - Impartial information from the FSA
1. Phil13/01/2007 00:30:48
The problem still rests squarely on regulatory authorities in fudging the issues. Government continually makes it clear that there is a housing shortage with vast areas going for regeneration and continual encrouchment on greenbelt and greenfield land. Ask yourselves this question: Why is it that only the fat cats can capitalise on land developments or reclassifications but average joe is kept out of the loop? Along emerges a whole host of so called landbanking firms (27 on the last count) capitalising on what is a fundamental housing shortage and giving average Joe a chance to take a slice of the action and low and behold the practice is left fudging. In fact, when the FSA moves in that is the very point when most investors lose their money or gives these firms the pretext to make a run for it.
Let's look at this fudge - taken from the FSA Hand book (links below)
(http://fsahandbook.info/FSA/html/handbook/PERG/11/2):
Q4. What is a collective investment scheme and will my property investment club be one?
Broadly speaking, a collective investment scheme is any arrangement:
• the purpose or effect of which is to enable those taking part (either by owning the property, or part of it, or otherwise) to participate in or receive profits or income arising from the acquisition, holding, management or disposal of the property;
• where persons taking part do not have day-to-day control over the management of the property; and
• where either the contributions and profits or income are pooled, or the property is managed as a whole by or on behalf of the operator of the scheme, or both.
http://fsahandbook.info/FSA/html/handbook/PERG/11/3
Q20. I run a business arranging for the sale of individual plots of development land to investors who are also required to use my services in obtaining planning permission for or disposing of the land as a whole (or both). Might I need to be authorised?
Yes, this is likely to be the case. This will be because the role you have in obtaining planning permission or in negotiating and effecting the sale of the land (or both) may mean that you are operating a collective investment scheme (see Q4). The purpose or effect of the arrangements would appear to be to enable investors, as owners of parts of the land, to receive profits arising from your services in obtaining planning permission or arranging disposal in respect of the land as a whole. If the planning or disposal process is such that individual investors do not have day-to-day control over it, the arrangements are likely to amount to a collective investment scheme, and to operate it you would need to be authorised or exempt. The restrictions on financial promotions referred to in Q18 would also need to be considered.
Q21. I run a business which arranges for individual plots of land to be sold to potential investors and, whilst I refer to the possibility of obtaining planning permission as a way of increasing the value of the land, I don't, nor does anyone connected to me, have a role in pursuing any such permission nor any other control over the land as a whole. Do I need to be authorised?
No. If all of the participants have control over the obtaining of planning permission relevant to their individual plots of land the arrangements will not be a collective investment scheme. Arranging for investment in plots of land by itself is not a regulated activity as plots of land are not of themselves specified investments.
I could go on and on...
In short it's waffle..
Take note of the following:
Q12. I run a scheme where each person owns individual properties or parts of properties in the property investment club. Each person owns property either directly, or indirectly (for example, through a limited company or a limited liability partnership of which he is the owner or through a limited partnership). Is this scheme likely to be a collective investment scheme?
No, unless the properties belonging to each person, company, limited liability partnership or limited partnership are managed as a whole by or on behalf of the operator of the scheme. So, the mere fact that the operator is managing a number of properties and achieves economies of scale in his management charges or in things such as insurance cover would not mean that the properties are being managed as a whole. Neither would the fact that the operator may be able to offer reductions in sale price because of bulk discounts negotiated with developers. This is provided the operator is managing each property on an individual basis.
As an example, if a managing agent manages a block of flats on the basis that the only profit or income each individual flat owner obtains is what arises from the management of his property, there is no management as a whole. However, if the managing agent managed the flats in such a way that each individual flat owner received an income from total lettings, regardless of whether that person's flat was let or not, the properties are managed as a whole and the arrangements are likely to be a collective investment scheme.
Q13. Does it make a difference if people participate through a corporate vehicle?
No. But it should be noted that a limited liability partnership or limited partnership, through which a person indirectly owns the property concerned, may amount to a collective investment scheme itself. This is if the partnership has more than one investor participant and subject to the considerations set out in this guidance.
AND... to sum it all up here is the punch line.... (talk about ambiquity and washing your hands -
Q19. Does the FSA or Treasury intend to regulate all property investment clubs?
We understand that, as at 6 March 2006, there is no current intention to change existing regulatory boundaries.
2. PropertySCAM13/01/2007 09:02:38
We agree that, so far, the government response to land banking has been inadequate.
However, the legal definition of a collective investment is broad enough to allow the FSA considerable latitude in interpreting it and PropertySCAM is very pleased that the FSA is now actively using its existing powers to clamp down on land bankers.
3. Peter Saunders13/01/2007 11:19:20
I have purcahsed one plot with ELP amd another 2 with Countrywide LAnd Holdings . The latter has recently sent me a letter saying that they are changing from a private limited company to that of a sole trader which bodes not well judging by the rest of the comments on this site .
What action can I take to recover my money from Countrywide LAnd Holding s ? I have read the commnet advising calling a solicitor Paul Smith regarding ELP and will be contacting him .
4. Phil13/01/2007 11:40:55
PropertySCAM,
It's totally inadequate.
The evolution in land bank "sharp" practices is going to be sales staff on commission only structures. Sales staff with no contractual employment contracts - effectively making them self employed. Land "brokerage" firms operating away from CIS definitions, such as, selling just plots of land without any real management apart from just forwarding potential planning applicants to some form of consultancy firm with a different legal identity to the Land "brokerage" firm. Know doubt with "sharp" solicitor advice.
What we are left with is the likes of Peter Saunders who most probably had Nuero Linguistic Programming sales tactics used against him to blow his mind to purchase 3 plots from 2 firms.
The solution is very simple. Given that this business is here to stay the FSA should go for full blown regulation. In so doing, the consumer is more protected and those firms wishing to operate within that regulation can do so.
Every time some New Labour politician opens their trap or some Cambridge Professor rabbits on about a housing crisis due to, growing population, migrants, single householders, growing divorce rates, etc etc. Leading to new housing needs and large scale regeneration ---- the likes of Peter who is logical in his thought processes parts with his cash.
What I want to know is what are the vested interestd in this and why are relevant authorities dragging their heels???
5. PropertySCAM13/01/2007 19:08:37
We agree. Those are worthy questions, deserving of answers.
And you're right. Our job is made more difficult every time a Barker report or equivalent is reported by lazy journalists who sum it up as a threat to green belt, when it is in fact nothing of the sort.
6. Phil14/01/2007 15:56:40
It's even more annoying when the FSA drags its heels especially when the most successful landbank firms are raking in around £1 million a month and the lest successful abround £250K a month. The sums are lucrative and those funding/starting such operations know very well what they are doing or are up to. Do these non FSA registered firms even know that any money taken from investors are not legally binding and have to be fully repaid back to investors? Even those firms with the best intentions in mind cannot possibly get around the collective investment scheme (CIS) definition. If they had half a brain cell they would simply sell plots for self build.
7. anthony15/01/2007 17:10:30
we are from singapore, and my wife and I are going to see a landbanker tomorrow. It is to invest in a plot of land in Swindon, apparently from a restaurant owner who will still sit on a small plot of land. I need help and advice if this is a good idea, or just another scam, thanks
8. Jennifer27/01/2007 04:43:22
May I know that is there any chance to get back money after FSA shut down the company and its subsidaries. I just wonder the money goes to Land bankers, they "transfer" money to other accounts. Should FSA investigate and "re-transfer" back the money to plotowner under FSA and police power?
I do believe the Land Banker need to pay overhead, marketing...etc. If the company do operate a formal business (ignore CIS or not). In their account book, large part of money received from plotowner should be still in the account.
If land banker receive monies, the monies transfer out from the management company, go strict forward to directors' pocket or other accounts out of management company of the site purchased. The company is fraud (ignore CIS or not).
This is a common accounting sense. Many companies operate diff kinds of investment which is not need to be a regulated activity but it works on principle as benefit of customer. Companies can run many years.
Could PScam tell me? Can FSA catch the Fraud Land Banker and investigate their account? If there is monies left, is any arrangement be made to plot-owners? I am not asking customer/investor protection. I know there is no claim fund to plot owner.
700 plot-owners did pay 5M (ULH), the monies must be in somewhere after marketing, adm, legal cost..., 700 plot-owners may not get back all monies, may be they are distributed back 30%?
Better than nothing just inform FSA, and FSA goes to shut it down.
Last question, investor did not get the title deeds. Money is transfered to Solicitors Kidd Rapinet? monies, agreement, question mark......how to receive monies from this solicitor? if the deeds didn't arrive, he should not pass the money to the land banker.
please ask FSA for the rest of plot-owner, what is the end of this appointed solicitors of land banker as they declare themselves only deal with paperwork?
THANKS
9. C Elliot28/01/2007 20:23:50
We also have 2 sites with ELP and have now been informed by Portman Land Investments that they 'would confirm it would be our intention, with your agreement to take options on the above site', (Great Kingshill). What is our situation and how do I contact the solicitor Paul Smith mentioned by Peter Saunders with regard to ELP? Is he employed by Browns Solicitors of Bradford whodealt with the purchase and who we investigated prior to the purchase? We are now plagued by London Land and Property Exchange to purchase further sites who seem to be stuck somewhere in the middle of Portman and ELP.
10. john miller29/01/2007 02:20:39
Sorry to tell you this but the London Land and Property Exchange are operating on behalf of the ELP. If you call the main ELP phone number and ignorantly ask for the London Land and Property Exchange, you may see that they are of the same entity. The same Karren is there to answer to both lines.
11. Raphael Nazaroo30/01/2007 12:16:11
Actaully, London Land And Property exchange ARE owned by the ELP partners who were formerly The English Land Partnership and before that they were Capital Land Banking Ltd. The director Of London Land And Property exchange was (and still is) a partner in ELP or The English Land Partnership. All of the ELP partners are activley involved in London Land And Property Exchange and can be found at their offices (with their Ferraris parked outside) everyday. I know this becasue they sold my cousin a worthless piece of Land under ELP and failed to recognise us when we visited their new office.
12. Polan30/01/2007 21:37:56
Are there are any people here bought land from Land International?I want to know what were you told by them,when selling you the plot,this to be used as evidence in the court.I was told,that,if the land does not get a planning permission,they (L I ) will give the money back.I instructed my solicitor to investigate,and to iniatiate a case,if an evidence of a fraud is found.And remember-Only if we are united,could win.
13. comment posted by [removed]03/02/2007 02:34:20
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
14. Peter08/02/2007 10:51:32
Hi, I bought from Rubicon, 2 plots in cambridge, 4 unit in maidstone. So Rubicon estates closed down. Posible I claim my money back. Please some one help me
15. Sarah Dean08/02/2007 10:59:09
Dear Property Scam,
I remember when [removed] first started and they are still the same slippery, devious, gold toothed nasties as before.
Only now it is glossed over with [removed] and the carefully concealed land sites on there website.
Nothing has changed from the phone call I had with an east end boy calling from [removed] who knew nothing about land and guaranteed planning permission to me and said the site would be out in 2 years.
Behind the gloss and calls for regulation are land sites that are in the middle of no where bought long before the glossy planning team ever came along.
They have out maneuvered the FSA by structuring the company to fall outside of the remit of the FSA.
[removed] have no planning experience, no development track record, nothing.
The FSA when stretching a collective investment to deal with some of the very bad elements in land banking industry seemed to completely fail to remember to call a property developer in order to find out what the necessary procedure is with planning or exits strategies in land.
Instead the new FSA guidelines give carte blanche to the unscrupulous.
According to the FSAs guidelines you can now continue to sell bad land in the middle of no where, sell it to mom and dad who you have just possibly given you their life savings, then you’re allowed to infer that planning could be achieved?
And leave the people..............???????????
I’m sorry but did I just miss something? How are these people going to get out of the land site and get there money out?
No one appears to understand how expensive, specialized and complex the reallocation of a land site is? It can run into the hundreds of thousands?
The FSA has just made it impossible for the best interests of investors to be achieved.
The implication of this in property development terms is that any company which applies proven development techniques, to promote a site for development and takes responsibility for the project by providing an exit for an investor, through a buy-back option, provides the cost for planning, gets the specialist planning procedure in place and buys good land will be hampered by the FSA, even though in reality day-to-day control of the land remains squarely with the investor.
While those who sell land with the ‘possibility’ of achieving planning permission in the future yet have no structure in place to attain these goals, are left to sell with impunity, and continue to prey on the naive.
Worst of all this ‘guidance’ by the FSA makes it impossible for a Developer to buy the site as the FSA are claiming the operator is not allowed to organize for a buy-back option, enabling a clean sale of the site to a developer – which is the purpose of an option.
In the blogs you can see worried investors run around being hounded by press and lawyers claiming to want to help them or worse "planning advisors."
Comments made about greenbelt, for god sake we are at urban capacity and most of us young can not afford a house because we never increased the release of land to meet the number of immigrants piling into beaten up England.
Greenbelt, Greenfield, heavy duty Industrial, Brownfield it’s needed the countries a miss managed mess.
I agree with CPRE I love an open countryside especially England’s but they have to build, why not push to create defined National Parks but to rant on about green belt when they have been building on only what they have to around the cities, towns and the odd sustainable village.
I want to be able to afford a house in this country.
16. Phil - the eco warrior08/02/2007 20:34:51
Sarah Dean,
The FSA are saying that if you want to run a collective investment scheme be it managing planning for investors or reclassifying land for planning and development purposes for investors then that requires FSA registration and compliance.
Just like a stock broker needs to be FSA registered to sell or buy shares on the stock market on your behalf.
Otherwise feel free to sell plots without any control over those plots or management of those plots post sell.
But, if you want to manage land for investors then register with the FSA.
I know it sounds like a bit of fudge and mess.
Now most "landbank" firms know that they can't charge exorbitant prices for just selling land plots alone - though they might try.
If the FSA tightens regulations it would be a big help. In any event, I foresee the FSA - DTI - SFO clamping down on these fly by nightly firms simply because they are a rip off and con.
This site has already stopped many potential investors from parting with their hard earned money on land that would probably never see planning permission in even 20 years or more or never.
*****Before anyone purchases a plot of land ask the local council or authorities responisble for planning just what the real potential is with the area of land getting pitched to them by oppressive sales staff is????******
The BIG question is why are they calling you to invest with them if the land they are selling is really hot? Surely they can raise funds from institutional investors, or banks.
The truth is that they are calling you for your money to make a massive profit for themselves even before the reclassification or planning application takes place.
They purchase say an acre of land for approximately £3000 and sell you 1/10th of an acre for as much as £20000 to £50000.
The NEXT BIG question is are they really even interested in the planning???
Go and figure it out.
17. PropertySCAM08/02/2007 20:47:10
Sarah, see also our response in comment #39 here.
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6T5KZW
18. Phil - the eco warrior08/02/2007 20:53:04
All I can say to PropertyScam is what a fantastic and good job your doing exposing this bad business to the general public. Good karma to you and bad karma to them !!
19. PropertySCAM08/02/2007 22:44:36
Thanks Phil. We're glad to know someone values our efforts.
20. Suraj17/02/2007 17:09:06
I am a newcomer to this debate, never having bought or sold any land or property whatsoever, but I am intrigued by the controversy concerning regulation of what is obviously a large-scale scam with a potential to rip off masses of people who "foresee" profitability in the land and property game.
In my opinion, it seems quite feasible to theorise that the high-volume sale of exhorbitantly priced plots (which are "sold" on the basis of the concept that investors will benefit from planning permission which truly, has very little prospect of ever coming to fruition) is being executed by syndicated groups of the landowners, themselves, and corrupt Local Planning Officials acting outside of the rules and regulations of the Councils for which they supposedly work. They probably interact with each other and "arrange it" so that, between Landowner, Official and those within their employ (or "on-the-take,") any investor outside the loop WILL be stripped of their cash.
This is yet another example of business in this wonderful country: it's not what you know, it who you know! Even if planning permission is eventually granted, and there are obviously many instances where it is, how many people are there out there who are really prepared to pay a premium for that privilege? How many people actually take the plunge on a piece of land WITH PLANNING PERMISSION?
Considering what an investor pays and how long he has to wait for his buyer to come along and part with his money, where is the real money to be made?
I think this is a very clever way for landowners and their skivvies to make money simply on the basis of a concept that people fall for because of their own "greed," for lack of a better word. Even if I am wrong, it is better to err on the side of caution and realise that there is no get rich quick scheme that doesn't involve someone getting hurt, somewhere along the line. I'm no expert, just a normal Joe with a view on what I'm seeing, here. Before coming on this site, I knew nothing of these matters, but I came here exploring the possibility of investing, but I'm sure, now, that I will not be investing so that they can walk away with my hard-earned, struggled-for cash, laughing all the way to their off-shore accounts, where properties abroad might, just might, though, be a better gamble!
21. robert paisley22/02/2007 17:33:02
The thread number 20. Sura you seem to miss a point. In any investment that is speculative, which landbanking is, then there are risks involved. The risk is that planning permission will never be given. The investors will still have land that will increase in value over the years.What has happened in the land banking market is that a number of cowboys have got involved to make all their money up front but not all companies are in that category. The FSA have some blame in that they could have regulated this market years ago but they didn't. A land banking company that offers services including obtaining planning permission is classed as a collective investment and needs to be authorised by the FSA. They then said companies had been operating illegally and they had to offer full refunds to customers. The companies chose liquidation as they did not have the money to return. There are a number of landbanking companies that are now awaiting authorisation by the FSA . Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
22. PropertySCAM22/02/2007 20:15:40
They [the FSA] then said companies had been operating illegally and they had to offer full refunds to customers.
This is not simply a matter of opinion and should have come as no surprise to any well run land banking company with competent directors fully cogniscent of their fiduciary duties.
The definition of collective investment in the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 makes very clear that the practice of most land bankers (including those now in liquidation) is collective investment. This is quite clear and unambiguous.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00008--t.htm#235
The same Act makes unauthorised operation of such a scheme a criminal offence.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and just because the FSA is a few years late in getting round to enforcing it does not change that fact.
23. comment posted by [removed]27/02/2007 12:08:18
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
24. Will Smith03/03/2007 11:28:20
Ref: 23
The site http://www.eais.net/index.htm is also part of PropertySpy.
A scam or good marketing?
25. Harry05/03/2007 21:50:32
Please can someone advice, put me in touch with others in the same boat etc. I bought a plot of land in Banstead Road, Ewell, Epsom, Surrey through Poperty Spy for £20,000 3 years ago. A few days ago they sent me a letter stating that they have cancelled their 'Value Plus' service. I went on their website and found it was not opening up and then got suspicious and came across this site. I phoned the FSA today but they have not heard of Property Spy let alone investigating them, but the agent told me to ring her back tomorrow with as much info on the company as possible like address etc.
26. Smithy06/03/2007 09:04:00
Harry - the FSA are investigating Property Spy - that is defininate. That is a FACT. Their address is Chaucer House, 4-6 Upper Marlborough Road, St Albans.01727 817300, 01727 817324, 01727 817322
27. Mustafa06/03/2007 22:54:34
Hi Im glad I found your website I bought 2 plots off Property spy a year ago and thought I had a good deal. I found you when I saw the website stopped working. I want to know what I should do now. I call the FSA today and they do not know anything of the company so I do not understand what has happened if they are not involved. Cany any one give me some advice?
28. Dickie08/03/2007 14:56:29
Seems the FSA SCAM team don't let on who they are investigating. Period. I know that they are investigating H&G AG (well, H&G seem to think they are being investigated by them). But FSA said they didnt know when I called them y'day...
Do you think DTI/FSA is doing a good job here by forcing companies like H&G to take measures (go into liquidation) pending enquiries? As an investor should we feel comforted or afraid? Honest question - interested in views...
29. comment posted by [removed]09/03/2007 11:30:49
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
30. comment posted by [removed]21/03/2007 10:56:32
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
31. Paul Reed22/03/2007 11:19:47
UK Land are by far the best of a bad bunch as far as this business is concerned which is why they are still open unlike a whole host of others mentioned on this post...
32. Debra 22/03/2007 11:40:17
How binding is a verbal agrrement to purchase a plot over the telephone?
The company is Countrywide Landholdings - promising a 90% chance
of planning permission being granted within 6 Months. Should Isteer clear?
Debra
33. Paul22/03/2007 11:49:43
Hi Debra.
Like the plague, that is a ridiculously negligent pitch!!!
34. PropertySCAM22/03/2007 12:06:37
Debra - it is not binding at all. Does 90% chance within 6 months sound credible? If it sounds too good to be true...
35. yj yateley02/04/2007 12:33:30
i am one of many fools. Now we all know what we have done. Do not rely on FSA or Goverement to help us. They will create another quango, waste our time and money and, final result will be nothing.
None of us are willing to let go our money or the piece of land thats been registered under our name. Lets form a body with local representation and, tackle with local councils. If at least one group succeeds we know what other groups in other regions can do. UNITED WE FIGHT. Please feel free to contact me via email.
36. comment posted by [removed]04/04/2007 23:46:23
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
37. Gillian Hesketh21/04/2007 22:27:02
Does anyone know what is happening to Townfield Developments and a site called Southwold?
Thanks
Gillian
38. HOMER04/05/2007 12:49:36
Hi Gillian
i have a plot at Sothwold and can confirm that Townfield Land Investments are currently in provisional liquidation see www.gnn.gov.uk looks like we may lose our money, let me know if you want to contact me to work together on this
Homer
39. HOMER04/05/2007 18:40:03
Gillian
See for complete link
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=275490&NewsAreaID=2
homer
40. stephen04/05/2007 23:45:27
i bought 4 plots in southwold with townfield all phone lines not working any help out there
41. HOMER05/05/2007 11:58:58
Hi Stephen
I sopke to someone from the insolvency service about Townfield and their provisional liquidation service, and was told to wait until results from the high court (due to be held on 20th June). For more details follow the link i posted in point 39.
we should perhaps pool our resources and work together on this.
Homer
42. Soyab Husein07/05/2007 18:09:29
Hi Homer,
I bought 3 plots at Southwold and NO Title Deed yet.
My freind and I would like to work with you too.
Please contact me directly soyab@hotmail.com
Thanks.
Soyab
43. Soyab Husein10/05/2007 18:22:17
Townfield's contact at the DTI are : [removed]
(Sorry - you can't post third parties' email addresses and telephone numbers here without clear consent from them.)
44. stephen15/05/2007 22:25:42
hi homer i will work with u too josyjones06@hotmail.com
45. Fino Palmeri17/05/2007 00:04:36
Glebe Estates!!
Yes i'm another fool conned into letting go of hard earned cash. Surely there must be a governing body to help protect us. The Goverment are constantly telling us to fund our own pensions, so we all endeavour to do this by investing in schemes like land banking, now where are they when we need their help!!! Surely we must be able to fight for what is rightfully ours!! After reading all your comments there is one common factor we are all asking for, and that is help but knowbody seems to know where to turn or what to do? How can we all collectively regardless of what company we have purchased from fight back and seek some compensation? Should we contact the relevant MP's? Does anyone actually want to help?
Please feel free to call me on 07989 162774 lets do something about this.
46. mark27/05/2007 20:46:06
Hi there,
I have been wondering why I have not heard from Townfield, but now I know. I bought a plot at southwold in june 2006 and have title deeds but are they ok or was it all a fix? What do I do whit them now?
47. comment posted by [removed]31/05/2007 21:08:19
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
48. homer03/06/2007 14:57:37
There is a google group set up it you have been involved with Townfield, please feel free to join by following the link below so we can all work together
Homer
" rel="nofollow">http://groups.google.co.uk/group/townfield
49. homer03/06/2007 15:00:13
Sorry this link should work
Homer
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/townfield
50. Ozzie13/07/2007 15:02:59
For Harry, Smithy and Mustafa. I am in the same boat mates. I bought 2 plots from Propertyspy in Banstead Ewell, surrey, I contacted them this week and they are now calling themselves a property magazine! and dont want to know. I was shocked. in 2004 Property spy had a consultant who was pursuing the reallocaton of land for residential develpment with the Council district plan. They sent me the report 2004 and told me I needed to do nothing. Apparently now the company is no more!
What we need to do is to get as many of the plot holders in contact so that we can discuss a way forward. We have invested alot of money.
Please feel free to contact me, anybody else out there with plots in Banstead please get in touch.
51. James26/07/2007 13:11:35
I also purchased a plot at Banstead Road, Ewell from Property Spy. I'm happy to be contacted regarding finding a way forward.
52. Shirley Jackson27/07/2007 15:57:44
I also bought a piece of land from property spy in Bamstead Road Ewell. I am happy to join any owners group if someone would let me know who to contact. Thanks.
53. Amanda 08/08/2007 20:15:09
Looks like we are all in the same boat - we purchased 2 plots from Property Spy in Sevenoaks Kent - used Kidd Rapinet as solicitors
Surely there must be something we can do - we tried the credit card issue but got told that because we own the land out right we dont have a case
What else can we do
Makes you wonder who can you trust if even solicitors let you down
Open for suggestions
54. Jason Beattie16/08/2007 10:10:57
Hi,
I also purchased a plot in Banstead Road, Ewell from property spy. I know we still own the land but was shocked to see PropertySpy dissapear off the radar and ditch their value plus scheme.
I am happy to be contacted regarding this case.
Jase.
55. comment posted by [removed]17/08/2007 06:02:44
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
56. comment posted by [removed]17/08/2007 06:09:15
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57. SANDEEP BABLA04/09/2007 23:35:24
I have bought 2 pieces of land for £10,000 each. One was bought from UKLI and the other from Grosvenor Land Brokerage.
Please advice if both of the companies mentioned above are reputable?
Regards
Sandeep
58. Imran17/09/2007 07:04:08
Has anyone heard from Land Futures UK, I was contacted by a female named Samantha and I never heard about this company. She said they got my name from some database but I am sure they got my number from another land company. Any comment on Land Futures?
59. comment posted by [removed]26/09/2007 19:17:08
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60. j902/10/2007 22:09:07
I appear to have been stung too having purchased 2 plots one April 06 with English Land Partnership (ELP) and the other on last month with London Land and Property Exchange (LLPX). I have now found out more than I carred to imagine about the unscrupulous Director Ian McCallum who apparently spent some time in prison for fraud regarding pyramid selling. (Need I say more) I have also been through my paperwork and have found some rather worrying information in the land registry which I will have to get clarified tomorrow. First off Mr McCallum has filed a Unilateral Notice as a beneficiary of my plot of land. I have now printed off the relevant documents to contest this.
I have also read the following in the Deeds from the Land Registry.
"3. The registration of the properietor is subject to the rights of all creditors of Ian McCallum arising under a petition in bankruptcy protected by a bankruptcy notice registered on 26 February 2007." There was also a second item which was worded exactly the same except for there was a diferent date and title Nr. If I read this correctly then any creditors that Mr McCallum may have will have a claim to our plot of land even though it is nothing to do with us. Please feel free to let me know if I have barked up the wrong tree!!!
I am miffed that this was even in the documents seeing as we actually bought the site at the beginning of April 06 months before the dates mentioned above so they should not even be an issue.
I am now extremly worried and scared of losing (or have already lost) money that I was trying to organise for my two small children's future. If anyone has any help or advise on where to go from here I am certainly all ears!
61. Mr Smith10/10/2007 10:19:37
Just received a call from someone on 01727 817300 who I assume is Property Spy to advise that the 0871 telephone number we use on our website will be illegal after next month.
It looks like this company is no setting up a telecoms scam. Everyone be warned.
62. kkevin07/11/2007 18:12:23
re comment 60.This has been published before,earlier this year or i'm losing my marbles!Ian McCallum in my opinion is not bankrupt,i have searched the bankrupcy register and cannot find him , i think this is a ruse by him to deflect his creditors.He is registered at companies house as the Director of several companies with a HOME address of 8 GODFREY ROAD , DONCASTER, this is also his address on the electoral role!A KIM MCALLUM actually lives at the address (sister,wife mother?)If you send any mail to the addressed to him it comes back unopened marked'gone away',very funny if its your home address!If you havent already guessed i too have been scammed,i fund out all the above info but am no nearer to getting my mone back.Good luck.
63. PAULINE McRORY09/11/2007 16:50:25
I have tried pursuing Ian McCallum through the courts and paid a solicitor to serve a judgement (he owes me a lot of money). The Sheriffs lodgement centre was unsuccessful in serving the judgment on Mr McCallum as they were unable to trace him and believe he is living in Spain!
64. Cheah SN 13/11/2007 07:22:21
Hi,
I was approached by a sales person from Jardine Smith. The company is registered in Singapore.
I am considering investing in a plot of land sold by this company. The location is in South Bitchburn near Durham.
So can some one tell me:
1. Is Jardin Smith a sound company in this line of business?
2. Is the location a good investment for the value of 7K pound for 10m X 10 m?
3. Any other advice?
Thanks.
65. john stevens01/12/2007 23:26:25
There seems to be an assumption from private investors that companies regulated by the fsa in landbanking would not be able to sell land at greatly inflated prices. There is currently a company called [company name removed by site administrator] that uses a collective investment business model but I think is exemp from the collective investment rules and works under the umbrella of an Fsa authorised firm. The land that the company are currently selling is massively overvalued as they are promoting a potential return of 150% over anything up to 10 Years. The land is not currently identified by the council and connot be worth any more than 50k an acre being generous, bear in mind it is in scotland. The Land classification is 8 acres greenfield 2 acres brownfield. This companies previous site was greenbelt in scotland offering a 3-4 times return. The profit the company will make on this, although not as bad as some of the landbanlkers out there is still very high and means that if the site is ever sold on to a developer in 10 years or so taking into account compund interest from a bank bond the return looks very poor. But yet the FAS seem to think that is fine. The fsa regulate companies like city equituies and hoodless and brennan whom market penny shares to private ciients. They make there money from buying as principle and achieving disounts on the difference betqween the bid and the offer in many cases as much as 20 percent in every pound. If you look at there investment performance it makes dismill reading but yet as long as they give risk warnings and follow procedure they are allowed to consistantly recommend shares that are unlikely to make money for there clients in the long term.
66. comment posted by [removed]13/12/2007 05:57:52
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67. comment posted by [removed]14/12/2007 14:21:37
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68. comment posted by [removed]14/12/2007 15:07:31
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69. kiran 18/12/2007 22:11:22
I have been out of the loop with the goings on with Property Spy, i bought some land in Banstead from them and obviously found out from this site that this was a scam.. I have had responses from most or some of you that own land in Bansted or bought from Pspy, but i have not been able to follow anything up due to family issues... Has anyone contacted the FSA as it looks like their is now a hotline... pls feel free to email or call me 0780109145 or kiran@anita74.wanadoo.co.uk Look forward to hearingfrom you.
70. dipac jai29/12/2007 10:17:24
I was in process of buying a plot of land with propertyspy plc, had paid hard earned 409,5 pounds as advance, when their website went kaput and their phones stop answering. I looked for help in the internet but the only thing i was able to find was that fsa was investigating but that they could not help due to the nature of the business... after insisting for months without success, i became involved in other activities, now at the end of the year, i tried to look and there again is a website of propertyspy plc, which leads to some company "propertymarket"with the same physical address.
Can I recover the amount I paid them (by credit card) and how? Can anyone help me? please when posting answers copy to my address dipacj@gmail.com also so I can immediately get the mailing!
I appreciate very much any help on this, please.
71. Scott21/01/2008 13:44:35
There are some interesting comments here and I thought I'd add my 2p's worth too.
Firstly are there any genuine land banking companies out there? The concept seems plausible however the investment is only as good at the site itself (one would imagine).
After reading the above posts I do see a slight problem with the FSA stance on the matter, this being: Those companies who chose to structure their business so as not to provide any additional service other then the “plot sale” and thus NOT wishing to be seen as a collective investment scheme have no vested interest in the progress of the site anyway, so even if the site did have a reasonable chance over the longer term of achieving planning permission, the chances of all the investors getting together and having the knowledge or capital to seek permission makes it even more difficult then perhaps having a company willing to work with/for you and also having a vested interest in getting the job done.
What this means (in my opinion) is the situation is actually worse, as if the said company closes down for what ever reason, relocate, re-brand, rename of what ever co*k and bull story they come up with, the poor old investor is then left with a piece of land which once may of stood a chance of getting planning permission as a whole, but now it’s been split up and sold on with multiple investors who don’t even know each other, for them to try and make contact and put together a collective application between themselves is perhaps even harder!
This means the chances are actually reduced and there is even less chance of getting planning permission or even selling at a loss. (Who wants to buy a piece of land in the middle of a field with loads of other investors’ owner the surrounding plots). They can’t even realise a loss or sell to recoup some percentage of their money back.
I think the whole market needs to be looked and if a firm wishes to arrange the sale and further activity of applying for planning permission then perhaps a regulated Land Banking company may do very well for itself and more importantly it’s clients in this market. Unfortunately all the firms I’ve read about look to have one thing in mind, sell land, sell all the plots on as many sites as possible for as much as possible and when the complaints get too much……………….. close up shop and start a fresh with a new name, website, sales story etc.
I can’t believe all land banking companies are set up with this in mind and I’d certainly like to see a genuine company with a realistic business model step forward and actually provide a service that benefits all. (Especially the investors!).
Many people have made money through holding land just not with any of the firms spoke about here. With regards to the FSA, they are only a firm who have too few people to regulate a massive number of different company’s and sectors. They, I suspect, are already stretched with what they have to do already.
72. comment posted by [removed]02/02/2008 16:45:38
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73. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2008 20:23:40
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74. Black Knight26/02/2008 07:52:58
Harry,
You need to sign on the TP1 and get your signature verified. Retain a copy for future reference and return the signed and verified original to PP.
Once the transfer is completed at the land registry (PP’s responsibility) Grant Thornton should contact you for your refund cheque.
If you do not complete the process, how are you going to get your money back? In this instance it will be assumed that you are happy to keep your plot.
Good luck.
Black Knight.
75. James Dean13/03/2008 15:14:41
Harry and Millie.
Did you get your money back ? Does the letter you got only apply to the UK ?
76. S Armstrong20/03/2008 05:52:04
12. comment posted by Polan30/01/2007 21:37:56
Are there are any people here bought land from Land International?I want to know what were you told by them,when selling you the plot,this to be used as evidence in the court.I was told,that,if the land does not get a planning permission,they (L I ) will give the money back.I instructed my solicitor to investigate,and to iniatiate a case,if an evidence of a fraud is found.And remember-Only if we are united,could win.
Dear Polan, I have also bought a plot off land from Land int. They also told me that if the land does not gain planning permission I would also get my money back???
77. S Armstrong20/03/2008 07:21:05
Polan,
Please contact me ASAP to discuss Land International.
seth_armstrong140@hotmail.com
78. comment posted by [removed]28/03/2008 17:26:52
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79. comment posted by [removed]28/03/2008 17:54:02
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80. Stan 31/03/2008 09:07:25
Hi Janice
Your question was " Does anyone here know of an investor who has benefitted from Cherry Tree project? "
I know of two investors who are ahead on this project. The Profitable Group and DLP. While its not on the PP site you can see the status of the Cherry Tree project here.
http://www.planning.colchester.gov.uk/WAM/findCaseFile.do?appNumber=073130
The planning application was refused March 18th 2008 and you can see the history and comments on the above site.
According to the DLP site
http://www.dlpconsultants.co.uk/planning/news_detail.php?id=255
as soon as planning is refused they are going to appeal. Its odd that DLP doesn't appear to know they are working for the Strategic Land Planning Trust as per the planning application and seem to think they are working for the Profitable Group. I am sure thats just a typing error. Neil Osborne of DLP is on the board of the Profitable Group and would clearly understand the difference.
You are benefiting by the way. The British tax payer is now paying to support the value of your investment by allowing this process to continue to the next stage.
Can you tell us what you think you bought at Cherry Tree and what you paid for it ? Is it a share in the hotel or a plot of the land ?
81. comment posted by [removed]06/04/2008 22:18:06
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82. Mr Rahman07/04/2008 12:46:57
I agree to what scott mentioned in his post regarding getting all plot owners on a particular site to group together to gain planning permission.
I purchased some plots in manchester from property spy nearly 3 years ago and was furious when i was notified that they cancelled the 'value plus' programme and then i relised this was all a scam to steal our hard earned cash!
Going back to what Scott mentioned. it will be hard to fight for any sort of planning permission for someone who owns a plot in the middle of a field with other surrounding investors. However, if all of us unite and propose a scheme jointly then perhaps we stand a good chance .
I understand that a lot of you may have bought on greenbelt sites which may prove harder to gain planning than brownfield sites. But...we have to try. Although a lot of us have fell victims to these scamsters we are still the legal owners of these freehold plots of lands. Its in all of our interest to achieve the best resut for our investment. we can only do this united!
My question is...Is there an organisation already in place to deal with this or maybe should all of us set one up. We will employ the best Land agents and planning officers to get the results.
If there is any support out there or any of you interested to unite together for planning then let me know . My number is 07814403058
83. comment posted by [removed]09/04/2008 15:55:36
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84. Mark S20/04/2008 16:47:40
To Janice
There is an interesting write up on Cherry tree Grove here in the comments section. http://www.lioninvestor.com/investing-in-uk-land/
What it actually says is that there is no possible way for a plot investor to make money from the Cherry Tree Grove site. Planning permission has been refused for that site anyway. But even if it had been approved there is a covenant on the site which says in the event of the land being used for commercial purposes the owners have to pay the full commercial value to the council. Basically the council already land banked it .
So in the highly unlikely event of planning permission being achieved the plot owners would have to stump up the full commercial value to the council anyway.
If you own this plot I would take some legal advice.
85. Sue29/04/2008 15:57:59
Don't you property scam guys ever get threatened with being sued ?
I am very grateful for what you do and think you do a great job and I agree 100% that these operations are scams. I am just curious what happens on the legal front. There does seem to be a general attitude that even when common sense dictates that something is bad or unethical it cant be accused until its absolutely been proven. This is actually why so many bad things survive for so long. Think tobacco.
Land Banking scams are one of those things where the benefit is always in the future. Therefore you cant absolutely prove that benefits wont come until long periods of time have passed. On that basis a lawyer can easily slap you with a letter saying prove its a scam - which you cant until people have left with the money.
How do you deal with that ?
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