FSA deals blow to landbankers
1. Jonathon27/01/2007 12:49:58
Just a questionfor anyone who may know. Rubicon Estates is a part of a large group of sister companies (or so I believe). This being the case, does that mean that the investors will stand a better chance of being reimbursed through the liquidators by this.... so called investment company?:
2. Jennifer30/01/2007 03:44:18
I don't get it. The liquidators only liquidate Rubicon Estates except it's sister company. Do you mean you want to info some relevant dept to give a "blow" to the group?
or Could PScam tell me which gov dept the investors should approach to blow off the whole group if sister's company name is known.
3. PropertySCAM30/01/2007 08:28:46
Firstly it is extremely likely, if the company is part of a larger group, that the existence and structure of this group is already known to the authorities. It is easier for a journalist to report a single company being taken down than to try and describe what are often extremely convoluted corporate structures behind these companies.
Secondly, if you are at all unsure that the authorities do know about related companies which may be parties to the unauthorised collective investment scheme, then you can easily report them. The FSA will obviously want to know, and the DTI has also been taking an active interest in these matters.
4. Mark30/01/2007 18:22:12
Rubicon always it seems portrayed themselves as a professional company with integrity. If they are part of a larger group, or do indeed have sister companies then maybe they have made sure that one is protected from the other, who knows.
Nothing official has been released from the FSA yet as to the situation. I think it would be naïve to think that no-one from Rubicon has visited this site, therefore maybe Rubicon would like to defend their position and answer some of the queries before people start getting the wrong idea about their intentions and situation.
5. RM31/01/2007 15:11:40
I believe First Homes Worldwide is either a parent or sister company to Rubicon. They shared the same offices in Guildford and at one point I remember reading on Rubicon's website that it was part of First Homes Worldwide. However, as is obvious Rubicon's website is no longer operational.
I purchased plots from Rubicon and received the title deeds. The purchase included shares of the management company which would be formed once all the land had been sold. One of the key premises in purchasing the plots was that a management company would be formed (by plot owners with the help of Rubicon) upon sale of all the plots, to facilitate land development.
My question is, if they are found to have breached FSA regulations, what compensation would I be entitled to? When I spoke to Kidd Rapinet (the solicitors involved) they were not sure, stating that I had legally purchased the plots. However, I purchased the plots on the understanding that a management company would be created to help with the development process. If this does not happen due to Rubicon's demise, then trying to deal with numerous plot owners from all over the world will be next to impossible. Therefore my individual plots are fairly useless on their own.
6. Mark31/01/2007 15:27:11
RM, You are right I believe, Rubicon and First homes Worldwide are one and the same, or connected in some way at least. The latter is regulated or a member at least of FODPAC, who trade by certain standards.
I think that only the liquidators ( whoever they are) will be able to provide the answers to the next questions.
7. Mark01/02/2007 10:52:34
Her you go ,
Look at this site and read what they have to say about Rubicon on their home page!
www.kingstoninternational.com/
8. Phil01/02/2007 16:46:22
Another one bites the dust. Watch the others fold now. Bound to happen. They are mostly all collective investment schemes. Even those that are not still ought to be shut down for charging excessive money for small land plots. Would you pay £100 pounds for a pint of milk? If the answer is NO then why pay several thousand for a minor fraction of an acre? Especially when you can purchase several acres for the same price. It's a CON - SCAM !!!!
9. Ian02/02/2007 00:37:24
I looked at a website when looking for property in Scotland. I gave my contact details and was contacted by phone and offered land in Winthorpe Leys Newark. I paid 7k for a plot of land, £400 for admin to Rubicon (emphasis on con) and £500 to Kidd Rapinet for conveyance fees. I have received a letter from Rubicon on December 12 telling me that the FSA has ruled against them. Rubicon has said they are challenging the ruling and suddenly I cannot get any information from anyone at all including Rubicon, the FSA and also Kidd Rapinet. If the property deal is based on a flaw based in law surely the sale of the land is then illegal. The guardian talks of compensation but in the absence of any information from the main players it is hard to know what to do next.
I get on my knees and pray i won't be fooled again.
10. Mark02/02/2007 16:43:26
Ian,
You and many others are of course in the same boat. The FSA has ruled that Collective Investment Schems are illegal....Yes, however on the subject of compensation, which is what I am sure the FSA would like to ensure happens, if a company is liquidated and all its assets are called in, all of a sudden there is no money to pay back the investors. Just hope of course that this is not teh case with Rubicon as the ARE a part of a very, very large group.
11. Phil - the eco warrior02/02/2007 18:18:59
Well, There is an old saying "FOLLOW THE MONEY TRIAL". No doubt the ones behind these firms that go rather rapidly into liquidation are making full use of company law - NOT to pay back.
The FSA or other regulatory bodies ought not just to leave this situation in which investors have been CONED out of substantial sums at the level of Company Law!!
These Directors or senior operatives should face the same level of confiscation of assets that say a money launderer or drug dealer faces.
The money trial and all accounts should be looked at and assets should be seized - particularly if there are proven links.
In my personal opinion these landbank firms operate very much like Boiler Rooms selling dodgy non existent stock except these ones misrepresent the facts on planning and land values.
Further their lawyers should be struck off. Really, now, these "sharp" practice solicitors are ok dishing out bent advice. They are very happy to charge fees on the back of that advice and land registration fees. Why should they be left off the hook???
12. Mark02/02/2007 19:22:32
Phil, You must have an extremely flexible lifestyle, considering the amount of time that you are expending doing all this research, good on you though.
I think you are most probably right when you say that these companies will concentrate hard on how NOT to pay back the investors once sussed by the FSA, however, in the case of Rubicon, it is now widely known that they are part of the First homes Worldwide group which is huge, surely they would be keen to protect their good name from a large group of angry investors?, after all they could end up losing even more money couldn’t they!
13. Phil - the eco warrior02/02/2007 23:16:58
Flexible lifestyle is a good way to put it Mark. Plenty of time to do more research ! I'm not always online so when I get the chance I visit this site and I like to put in my two pennies worth ;)
Rubicon Estates knew they were operating on thin ice. Plus they have taken investors to the cleaners. They must have been raking it in. What really gets up my boat are these solicitors they used who must have known the same.
By the time the FSA gets involved its usually to late and the damage has already been done. These investors would have placed funds in regulated markets. This is typical, the black economy always takes away from legitimate business.
FSA - DTI - SFO pull your fingers out and get it sorted ! That's your job to protect law abiding business from getting put out of business by SCAM.
14. Mark03/02/2007 12:39:04
All Rubicon Investors,
Letter through the post this morning from Moore Stephens Chartered Accountants, ref claiming with respect to the liquidation. It seems as though Rubicon have made an attempt to find an FSA regulated company to take over the interests of the sites, whether that is true or not, I don’t know, what that will achieve I don’t know. OK it seems as if the days of the “Land bankers” are over now, however that leaves a lot of sites in disarray, something must be done in order to somehow manage these sites now, if only to protect the “naive” like myself.
Further to that, is there anyone else out there who has received one of thesee letters, if so, what is the best way to reply in order to make an attempt at getting some of the money back?. Do you just send a copy of the transaction, a copy of the deeds and claim that because it was an illegal transaction according to the FSA, then you are claiming the said amount back?
Mark
15. Sivaraj03/02/2007 17:21:04
I have received the letter from Moore Stephens as well but no idea what to do next. I have also foolishly invested.... my thoughts are maybe we should speak to a lawyer or an estate agent.
Guess i am floundering for ideas
Sivaraj
16. Phil - the eco warrior05/02/2007 10:36:33
You might want to give Rubicons solicitiors a call:
http://www.kiddrapinet.co.uk/office.asp
17. comment posted by [removed]05/02/2007 12:58:33
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
18. ALAN05/02/2007 19:41:17
I have just paid £7000 to COUNTRYWIDE LAND HOLDINGS for a plot of land in CRICKLADE have i been conned PLEASE TELL ME NO,
Does anybody have any info on them would be much appreciated,
THANKS. :- \
19. RM05/02/2007 20:55:58
I bought 3 plots from Rubicon at the Pilgrim's Vale site in Kent. Has anyone else out there bought at this location? When I last spoke to Rubicon (before the FSA had investiated them sometim in Nov 06) not all the plots had been sold here. Rubicon were awaiting the sale of all the Pilgrim's Vale plots before helping to form a management company. Kidd Rapinet are also their solicitors and could have a conflict of interest. When I spoke to the Aylesbury office they were not very helpful in clarifying how I could seek compensation, merely stating that I was the legal owner of the plots. But without a sensible method of trying to develop the land (which was the point of forming a management comany to coordinate efforts) a few plots are useless.
20. comment posted by [removed]05/02/2007 23:13:32
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21. Phil - the eco warrior05/02/2007 23:23:07
Just for the record the details on COUNTRYWIDE LAND HOLDINGS as per their website:
Published Address:
Countrywide Land Holdings Ltd
2nd Floor
145-147 St John Street
London EC1V 4PY
Tel: 0800 389 0316
Solicitors:
Cain Associates
297 Broadway
Bexleyheath
Kent DA6 8DG
Taken from http://www.countrywidelandholdings.co.uk website URL:
"We will work hard to lobby councils and the government using our key strategic alliances to apply for outline planning permission on your behalf"
If that is the case and they are not FSA registered then it does read like a Collective Investment Scheme (CIS)...
22. Louise Innamorati07/02/2007 12:46:57
I have also purchased a plot of land in Newark and am completely in the dark as to what to do next.
Help!!
23. Ash07/02/2007 18:13:35
response to RM (19.)
I've also bought Pilgrims Vale plots. Recently received invite to meeting of creditors on 14/02 and a claim form. The documents aren't clear to understand next options or implications. Will need to contact the liquidators for more info, if anyone has already done that, please comment.
24. Mark07/02/2007 23:23:01
My thoughts are, write to the liquidators, ask them to raise the question "what is intended to be done with the sites in order to protect the duped investors interests" at the meeting. something will have to be done in order to maneage these sites.
25. Paul Smith08/02/2007 16:11:23
Homepage: http://www.whiskyscam.co.uk
With regard to Rubican Estates Limited if investors want to get their money back they must fill in the Proof of Debt form and file with Moore Stephens. Claim for the cost of the plot, expenses and loss of interest. You must also file evidence of the purchase.
It would be beneficial if one or two investors could get themselves elected to the Liquidation Committee so it is important for some of you to attend and group together to vote someone onto the committee. Don't miss out. Go to the meeting.
26. londoner08/02/2007 23:37:41
I work in insolvency, and the best thing to do is to fill out the proof of debt form, form 4.25 and send it to the Liquidators with supporting documentation, in this case title deeds of the land which you purchased. You legally still own the land, but as the company was not FSA regulated you have the right to claim for the money you invested, not however the amount which you were expected to receive upon planning permission being granted. This is a rather strange case as you are not actually creditors as nothing is owed to you, a true creditor would be a trade creditor. With the new FSA regulations though the Liquidators will deem you as creditors, with maybe the possibilty of you having to hand back your plot of land.
27. PropertySCAM09/02/2007 09:05:05
It might be prudent to send a notarised copy of the title deed at first and hold onto the original.
28. Mark09/02/2007 13:34:43
Londoner,
Thanks for your expert view, seriously, it would be nice if more people who work in the concerned profeesions would give their views as you have, and offer advice accordingly. Only thing is though, I have a feeling that there will be little money in the plot for Rubicon to do as you have hinted.
29. Londoner11/02/2007 20:33:21
You will know the true worth of Rubicon and your plots come the Creditors' meeting, in which a statement of affairs will be made available. From this it should become clearer as to what the Company's worth is and maybe a hint of, if any, distribution to the investors. A lot of people have negative views about liquidators thinking they are working FOR the company which fleeced them, but being a Creditors Voluntary Liquidation, they are working for the creditors with their interests being the main concern to the Liquidators. It is better to liase with them, and assist them in their investigations.
30. Derek Yates17/02/2007 16:40:08
I'm originally from Scotland but now live and work in Dubai. I too invested in a plot of land at Newark. I have read the comments above and found them all informative as I've been completely in the dark. It has come as a shock that I could lose my investment however I did fear the worst when I received the letter from Rubicon.
Can someone please shed some light as to what was discussed at the Creditors meeting and is there any light at the end of the tunnel. What steps should we all collectively take next?
31. pat17/02/2007 23:16:59
I have purchased a plot of land through hambrook&greenstock ag. The land is in Essex. Does anyone know anything about this firm? Any infor would be great
32. David18/02/2007 15:23:51
14 NEW REGULATIONS A DAY!
Did you know that the Government is pumping out 14 new sets of regulations every day? We live in a society and with a government that is overpowering and trying to take more and more control.
At the moment we have legislation which is used by the DTI and Trading Standards. Both can police sales of property or investments. We have legislation such as the Property Misdescriptions Act and Trading Standards Act that control what an agent or member of the public is selling land and can reasonably claim.
If we have a knee jerk reaction and choose to legislate against landbanking companies, then we are at risk of creating another Dangerous Dogs Act or Anti-Hunting Act. It will simply be hurriedly and badly drafted and will have hundreds of loopholes, which plenty of lawyers and businessmen will take advantage of and we will simply be back to square one. It will then not be possible to stop the rogues, as Parliament would be exhausted from the first Act and a safe haven will have been created for the rogues.
We need to use imagination, our existing legislation and not further police state attitudes!
33. John18/02/2007 15:30:07
I RUN A LANDBANKING COMPANY.
I will remain anonymous because of this witch hunt. I have two friends that have made £8 million and £22 million respectively, both of whom owned land within the Green Belt, less than five years ago. My land is within sight of their land. I bought this land at over 25 times its agricultural value. I was in competition with a big developer.
Before I bought it, I spoke to two of the UK’s top Planning Consultancy firms and both stated that the land had very good prospects. I don’t have millions of pounds, which was necessary for the purchase and planning work. Banks don’t lend on speculative projects like this. So I sell part of the land to raise funds.
There are genuine investment opportunities, albeit speculative (as is all investment to varying degrees). You have to be very careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Unfortunately, from what I have seen, 95% of landbanking companies are selling land that is of little or no use and those companies have little or no planning knowledge. In fact I have phoned many of these companies and spoken with their salesmen and as soon the subject turns to planning, they become flumoxed. The real problem is that planning is a complex world and it is very difficult to put your finger on when someone is telling porkies.
The simplest way is to find out what work has been done. It would not take much to have an experienced planning consultant to look at that work and to quickly ascertain whether or not he or she considered genuine efforts were being made. That consultant could be commissioned either by a consortium of like-minded investors, or in the public interest, funded by a site such as this. That’s the proper route to go, and not to go on the rampage, which appears to me to completely destroy anything the investors may have left.
34. PropertySCAM18/02/2007 16:48:23
Other readers may find it relevant to know that "David" and "John", the authors of comments 32 and 33 above, are in fact one and the same person.
35. Nic19/02/2007 16:48:40
Unfortunately my boyfriend and I also invested in the Pilgrims Vale site but couldn't attend the meeting on 14th - did anyone manage to go and find out if there's any possibility of investors receiving anything from the liquidation?
I've only just found this website and the information is really useful - I wish I knew the names of more investors so we could all work together to get the best solution for us all.
David/ John - I'm so happy that you're friends have made a fortune from land investments - please tell me they're something to do with Rubicon and they're going to shell out dough to those of us who haven't been so fortunate...
36. Phil - the eco warrior20/02/2007 14:35:46
David or John or whatever your name is? rofl
Why don't you enlighten us and tell us:
(a) How much the greenbelt land plots are really worth?
(b) What areas?
(c) Who these consultants are?
In fact don't bother. Just contact the FSA and give them the details. They might actually register you and help you along. Honestly. ;)
37. JG22/02/2007 15:08:28
I work for a landbanking company, for obvious reasons I will not say which one, and am in daily contact with alarmed customers. I believe a few bad eggs have given the entire sector a bad name. Once the sort of momentum we are now seeing gathers pace it is nigh on impossible to stop. In the current climate, is it fair to suggest these same alarmed customers perpetuate their own fears. I have an affinity with everybody I speak to in my working day and do my utmost to allay their concerns. However, I would have no hesitation in speaking with the DTI or FSA at the slightest hint of my valued customers being ripped off. This is not disingenuous, merely my sense of decency to people, many of whom have invested large sums, (often remortgaging), in completely good faith.
38. PropertySCAM22/02/2007 15:29:27
We appreciate your candour, JG. While you're here could you please describe to us the characteristics and modus operandi of a trustworthy land banking company.
- You buy a site with good prospects for development, but which is not currently zoned as such.
- You divide into plots and sell them to investors. (Is that the right term, or do you prefer speculators or something similar?)
- Then what?
Your investors must have day to day control over their plots and you cannot offer a service involving things like applications for rezoning or outline planning permission without falling foul of FSA collective investment rules.
So, you either register as a collective investment and do all those things, or...
What exactly is your clients' exit strategy. We'd really like to know.
39. JG22/02/2007 21:45:01
Frankly, I am not certain such an organisation, (trustworthy land banking company), exists. Apologies to anyone reading that is completely beyond reproach. Genuinely, it is only recently I personally have become aware of the bigger picture. What I now know saddens and appalls me. I would have no compunction in speaking with any regulatory body in an effort to prevent decent people losing large sums of money they can ill afford to write off. Moderator, you will see I have not responded directly to your questions, you will know my email address and I would be happy to correspond privately. Nothing you ask will not be addressed.
40. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 00:16:42
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41. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 08:33:20
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42. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 09:01:14
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43. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 18:24:11
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44. Mehmood25/02/2007 17:05:46
I would like to thank PropertySCAM for the good work that they are doing.
I was persuaded to buy 3 plots of land from Rubicon Estates at Pilgrims Vale in Kent for £ 12500. I am a novice but I did do some research. It looked like a respectable company and one of the contacts there even said that he himself had invested in the scheme. A key factor that persuaded me that Rubicon did not keep any portion of the land once all of it was sold and a management committee would be set up to take the plans forward. I was however not happy that Kidd Rapinet was acting on behalf of both the client and the vendor I therefore engaged my own solicitor who assures me that the land is legally mine as I have the title to it but what use is a small piece of land in a field of several acres.
I have received a letter from Rubicon in Dec 2006 informing me that the FSA considers the scheme illegal but have not heard from the liquidators Moore Stephen. i wrote in January to Rubicon but have not received any reply. Would Mark, Paul Smith and Londoner, (threads 24 - 26) please advise about the contact details of the liquidators so that I could contact them.
45. Brahan26/02/2007 11:16:16
Mehmood. Apparently the FSA still may allow the management companies (that have been handed over) the opportunity to spply for planning. I only hope it could work out for you guys. I know very well what happened at Rubicon Estates and I'm shocked at how badly everyone involved with the company as well as the investors have been treated.
46. Phil - the eco warrior26/02/2007 12:38:12
Mehmood,
Have you considered taking a joint civil action with other investors against Rubicon Estates? It is a much more effective way as then you are looking at balance of probabilities !
I'm not sure why the OFT are not doing more in this area. OFT pull your fingers out and stop Mehmood and others from losing out !
47. Paul Smith26/02/2007 18:31:59
Homepage: http://www.whiskyscam.co.uk
Phil - the eco warrior. The problem with Rubicon is that it is part of First Homes Worldwide - the owners live in Dubai. Yes you could take a civil action against them but have you got a couple of hundred grand as security for costs. Because of the millions, I understand it is in the region of 13 million they have taken off investors they can afford the very best lawyers in the land to defend any claim against them.
I am following the problems encountered by Victoria State authorities in their prosecution of Stephen Cleeve of European Land Sales Partnership for gross misrepresentation in his sale of plots of rural England to the Aussies. Unfortunately money buys the very best lawyers.
That said, if anyone is interested in a civil action please contact me. I am willing to assist on a pro bono basis but I am associated with a team of the very best litigation lawyers.
48. RM27/02/2007 22:23:17
This is for Paul Smith (comment 47). How do we contact you in order to discuss the option of a civil action further?
49. Phil - the eco warrior28/02/2007 13:11:20
Paul Smith,
Agree with the costs issues involved with civil actions however its a case of having the courage of your own convictions. Sometimes you have to take the bull by the horns and press ahead. If enough investors who have been scammed collect together for civil action then the funding should be there and well with a case such as this and with balance of probabilities to prove whose to say the costs will not get awarded to the defendants/ scammers. The best lawyers these defendents use would most probably shit bricks.. pardon the pun..
50. comment posted by [removed]01/03/2007 11:45:06
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51. PropertySCAM01/03/2007 12:42:57
Did you get our email alright, Richard?
52. Smithy02/03/2007 16:28:26
Richard Cook - email below details contact numbers for this company. They are still in the same building in St Albans...
42. comment posted by smithy23/02/2007 09:01:14
Jon - I purchased a reply to you in anothe thread here. Prop Spy have temporarily ceased trading - not closed. Ring 01727 817479 this is for Vantage Land - they are in the same building as property spy, with the same employed people as prop spy with the same owner. If no joy try 01727 817310 I recall its an old direct line to prop spy.
First Strata Ltd is a land company based in London but owned by the same man who owns Prop Spy - Andrew Beckingham. Not many people know these companies are connected. He is often based at the London office - check First Strata Website. I have to log off now. Will try to assist more Monday.
53. comment posted by [removed]03/03/2007 22:35:12
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54. comment posted by [removed]04/03/2007 10:59:22
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55. Jay05/03/2007 10:03:39
Hi,
I have buy two plots with Property Spy and got a letter recently saying that the Value plus application has been terminated. Does not say what all this means. Has anyone else got the same letter. I would like to join in any civil action against the company.
Jay
56. Will Smith05/03/2007 12:22:55
As far as am aware PropertySpy is the 2nd largest of the so called 'landbanking' companies, the largest by far is the UKLI.
Ref Comment 52.
First Strata Ltd is owned by a Daniel Luxon, 79, N12 7NP, I don't know where Andrew Beckingham comes into this?
57. comment posted by [removed]05/03/2007 13:32:35
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58. Will Smith05/03/2007 15:14:12
Smithy you raise an interesting point.
It's rumoured (documented in their press statements they put out) that the company has 10-12m a month to spend!
59. Smithy05/03/2007 15:19:52
Andrew Beckingham owns around 15 companies - he moves money around between the accounts to buy land, pay employees and juggle his personal spending! The company is worth a lot but that figure isnt correct. It around the 5 mill - but thats adding all the companies together
60. Harry05/03/2007 22:12:16
I too purchased land from property Spy and would like to join forces with others.
61. Mark07/03/2007 19:55:17
Letter through today from the Rubicon Liquidators, funnilly enough there is no money in the pot, it seems the £13m taken was "re-distributed" mainly to the 100% shareholders First Homes Worldwide. Any surprises there ?
However all the investors are now able to contact each other to sort the mess out the best they can!.
62. memo08/03/2007 16:10:43
i bought 3 lot of land from hamilton bently and partners only two weeks agao , the project is 4 phases he claimed that only very few remained in phose two and they are now marketing phase 3 and 4
I asked him if i didnt want to wait so long , and they told me that they wud sell my lots in the 3rd or 4th phase with a profit , it is in church view , essex .i called them today to tell them i want if possible to cancel the deal since i gave them thee money since two weeks and still havent recieved any pa[ers . he said normaly registration takes long time i asked him if he cud get me out and that i am not happy after reading abt all land scams . but he assured me that they are registered in enengland and cannot do wrong to cutomers
pls tell me have i been coned
63. Harry U08/03/2007 23:39:16
I too would like to join forces - Has anyone purchased through Prop Spy at Ewell, Epsom, Surrey?
64. Confused12/03/2007 15:02:03
Has anyone spoke to anyone at Moore Stephens? Are they helpful? What do they have to say?
65. Mark12/03/2007 18:56:05
Confused, Give them a ring and find out yourself, it's no secret!
66. confused13/03/2007 12:21:04
I have do not share an interest in Rubicon as I am not an investor, this case just interested me and I just wondered if someone had spoken to the Liquidators and whether them and or their employees were helpful.
67. comment posted by [removed]15/03/2007 20:39:57
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68. Will Smith16/03/2007 21:11:27
Ref 67
I've known off Gladwish for about 15 years, he was the first to sell agricultral land, what he says he does, I speak from experiance.
He was investigated by the FSA about 3-4 years ago, and I suppose the fact he is still here is the result.
Why do you say it's a scam?
What evidence have you to say this?
Do not get carried away with your words 'bob the builder'.
69. been fooled18/03/2007 19:26:45
I myself also bought a plot from Gladwish after buying the one previously from the crooks property spy. I only bought it because it was cheaper then anyone else.
I ve found out that:
-On there deed there was no restrictive clauses unlike PSpy.
-It was really fast process because they advised you dont need a solicitor to do conveyancig.!!!(is that right?). so I had the deed within a month.
And bad point is that they charge somthing like 25% to sell it for you which is steep.
70. Will Smith18/03/2007 22:10:10
Ref: 69
You can transfer the name on a simple T! form, you don't need a solicitor to do this.
Is 25% much if you make a good profit and get paid?
71. Tom Cruise18/03/2007 23:21:56
Ref: 70
You sound so protective over Gladwish Land. You're either Gladwish owner or employed by them.
This site is for consumers and not for sellers advertising under bogus ID.
As far as am concern all land bankers are con artist.
72. peter20/03/2007 17:59:58
Has anyone else purchased land from Country Wide Landholdings in Rusper
near Horsham ? I have and was told I would get monthly updates but have heard nothing:
73. Will Smith21/03/2007 10:47:10
Ref: 71
Hey Tommy.. real name!
I do not and have never worked for any company selling land. The subject has interested me since around 1985.
I supose I must be a consumer as I'm certainly not a seller.
74. HAMBROOK22/03/2007 23:01:19
I can confirm H&G is a scam.
Contact [email address removed]
I have plots at sible and Marlow. I had person mobi/home details for Kevin Rendal etc etc and spoke to Schenker..!
All lines now dead.
How do we get our money back. They liquidated before 14th Feb 07
Marlow cant even be registered as the farmers solicitors sellig hasnt been paid for the land deeds by H&G, so we own plots but they're not registered..!
75. Richard 30/03/2007 20:43:29
Can anyone tell me whether they have any news about Property Spy? 2 weeks now since we were told they will be up and running again but they are not. Reading the comments about the land banking places being shut down is really scary and I would like to do something before they get shut down.
Surely we cannot leave this lying down...
76. Fiaz03/04/2007 12:54:31
PropertySpy have re-opened under the name 'Insight Land' see their site at www.insitelandinvestments.com or you can call them on 0845 026 0120. Good Luck!!!!!
77. Richard 03/04/2007 20:24:00
Re cooment 76 Property Spy re opened 'Insight Land' see their site at www.insitelandinvestments.com or you can call them on 0845 026 0120
Thanks for the info - really interesting website.
What I dont understand is how can they re open with another name, what has happened to Property Spy and if they have been closed down by FSA how can they re open by using another name. Sorry but I cannot see how that is legal.
Any advise
:-
78. KAISER10/04/2007 18:21:43
I HAVE BEEN SCAMED TOO .I BOUGHT A PLOT IN PILGRIMSVALE VIA RUBICON (THANKS GOODNESS MY FRIENDS DID NOT JOIN ME AS AGROUP).i DO NOT HAVE ACLUE AS TO WHERE TO GO FROM HERE. iS THERE A MANAGEMENT GROUP OR HAS IT ALL GONE DOWN THE DRAIN.
79. Jon29/04/2007 00:17:58
Rubicon Owners,
I drive past the Winthore Site every day on the way to work, what a wonderful place, maybe there is some truth in the fact that it may one day be utilised for development, especially in such a large growth location. However w e can't be sure can we, the liquidators are giving no information away at all. OK Property Spy, we are the investors , but also the victims.......Maybe some others like myself, invested without knowing , or realising the damage that we may be doing to our georgeous country, however now we are at a loss..... What do do we do now. Thank god the authorities are now onto the companies that do this, but face it... there are a lot of sites now that are split into multiple ownership, like ours at Winthorpe. Will we be represented?, will we be forgotten?, will we get any money back?. Maybe we will get lucky?. You expend a lot of time and effort exposing, will you expend any time and effort protecting?.
Regards
Jon
80. comment posted by [removed]05/05/2007 10:41:49
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
81. Will Smith05/05/2007 11:40:28
Ref: 80
Alex it does not look too promising.. does it?
At least 2.. maybe 3.. if not 4 of the companies have been closed down, will it be a 5th with www.jardinesmith.com?!
Let's hope the FSA read these postings.
82. comment posted by [removed]07/05/2007 07:14:13
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
83. comment posted by [removed]08/05/2007 10:14:00
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
84. Andy10/05/2007 09:50:12
What kind of land are these people selling? Greenfield/Greenbelt/Brownfield?
Can anyone buy land from any of the above categories?
85. PropertySCAM10/05/2007 19:22:05
The only one of the categories you mention that has any formal definition is green belt. The others are used by different people in different ways and have little real significance so far as planning is concerned.
Most land sold by land bankers is green belt and/or is subject to one or more other forms of statutory protection - areas of outstanding natural beauty, sites of special scientific interest, landscape protection areas, nature conservation areas and so on. These are often not obvious candidates for future development.
Anyone can buy land in any of these categories - if someone is prepared to sell at a price they are prepared to pay - and this is where the issue is.
Too many people seem willing to pay prices well in excess of the real value of land in the mistaken belief that this is an investment.
There's nothing to be gained in spending £10k on a piece of land worth £100.
86. Andy11/05/2007 06:20:03
Thank you PropertySCAM
Can anyone buy land from any of the above categories? By this question I mean.... can non UK people buy land? Moreover can a foreigner buy land or property any where in the UK or there are some specific areas for foreigners?
I want to invest in the UK, if not this, I will plan to invest in some other property.......
87. PropertySCAM11/05/2007 08:30:02
This is a free market. Anyone can buy anything here provided that it is legal to sell it. This includes all forms of real estate. So yes, you can buy property in the UK providing there is no local law in your country which prevents this.
Just be careful. Small plots of land are not good investments. If you plan to buy a larger piece of land or other forms of property, research carefully and understand the risks.
88. welshman0112/05/2007 10:55:31
Hi,
I have just read this whole post as I too bought at Pilgrim Vale.
Just received a letter today from the liquidators (Moore Stephens) inviting exisitnig investors to bid for the remaining plots at Pilgrim Vale - can this be for real given it is coming from the liquidators?
Also is the value of these plots likely to be significantly lower given we are not buying agricultural land with no management company?
Thanks in advance.
89. londoner13/05/2007 20:36:25
To welshman01
Of course it is for real. If such proposal has come from the liquidators, and they are now managing the affairs of the Company, then it is a legitimate offer.
90. PropertySCAM13/05/2007 20:54:58
We'd advise caution. It is the duty of the liquidator to secure maximum value for any assets of the company which will, in turn, maximise any dividend payable to eligible creditors of the company. These eligible creditors probably do not include existing plot owners, whether or not they are owed money.
So you could buy more land from the liquidators, probably at a greatly reduced price, but that does not necessarily make it a good investment. The truth is that the land is probably not worth very much at all.
91. marilyn14/05/2007 09:13:23
HI,
I also bough in Rusper, with Countrywide Land Holdings. Does any-one have any additional info on them
92. Valerie 22/05/2007 12:54:26
Iam midway buying land with Country Wide Land Holdings. My solicitor seams very cautious.
Can any one say if you need a solicitor with land banking experience. As no ordinary solicitor will complete a purchase in the 7-10 days these firms give you to complete,
93. Ex Countrywide boy22/05/2007 14:15:31
Valarie,
That company is dubious. Would you buy a car from a dodgy second hand car dealer?
One born every day.
94. PropertySCAM22/05/2007 14:29:55
Valerie, your solicitor is right to be cautious. You should take the time to investigate and clearly understand the risks of buying a land plot before you buy. What you find during your research may give you cause to consider alternative forms of investment.
95. shola lawal15/06/2007 01:27:37
I'm so sad re outcome of the whole issue. I used to think that investment was a good thing and encouraged by the goverment and the system, I remortgaged my home to invest in the scheme via rubicon and as single parent with two jobs it's a massive and live changing invstment supposedly, only to find myself worst off than I was before rubicon. who is helping the common and poor people? 
96. dave sheen18/06/2007 14:45:04
i have invested with country wide land holdings in Rusper and Cambridge and I have put £48K into it which i remorgaged in order to do so so i gather i have lost everything then
97. dee20/06/2007 14:53:15
I bought a plot through propertyspy in southend on sea five years ago.(I seem to be one of the longest existing plot owners on this website?)
Is there anybody else out there that bought into this site ? desperate to know as I need to start to comply a list so that we can at least stand together with regard to any action that we might be able to take!! ps thank you property scam for the prompt reply to my e mail I have contacted paul today
98. H06/07/2007 12:18:39
I also have brought a plot of land from p spy. Can any body tell me what is happening with regards to the fsa investgation in to p spy and has there been any new development.
99. trevor stokes08/07/2007 19:05:46
can anyone shed some light on wether i have been ripped off or not.
I cant get the company i purchased a plot of land off as an investment to take my calls or answer my questions.
If i can just get some answers i can move on because right now i trust no-one and i cant make any business plans to invest etc untill i learn if this one has gone wrong.
I let English Land Partnership have £6250,not alot but half my savings anyone know if ive made a massive mistake?
100. stephen greene10/07/2007 11:15:33
I have been reading this site with interest as I have a friend who has started working for one of these companies, selling land in Saltash Devon. The land is not sold on a collective basis, in fact the company does not own the land , they act as a broker, how does this work?
101. comment posted by [removed]14/07/2007 00:53:09
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
102. Kevin28/07/2007 10:06:22
I too bought land from PropertySpy and I'm looking for information on what to do, get in contact with others and seek restitution etc. Is there any organised group out there? The sold A LOT of land so there must be enough pain out there! 
103. Conrad31/07/2007 14:25:45
I have recently been presented with a Land Banking opportunity to purchase a plot of in land in surrey from Asset land Investments plc. Has anyone heard of them? or has any experience buying from them?
Any comments greatly appreciated
104. House Buyer05/09/2007 11:18:14
I am looking to buy a house in Kimpton Bottom (Harpenden) which is near to one of the original Property Spy plots (20 acres). The Property Spy land has not been maintained and is becoming derelict and overgrown. I am very concerned that the land will be used illegally for fly tipping, racing old motorbikes or even taken over by travellers. Does anyone know how hard it would be to trace the owners and get agreement for me to maintain the land and lock the gates - maybe rent the land for a nominal amount? Alternatively could I get the council to issue a compulsory purchase order or force the owners to maintain the land? I am sorry for the many people on this web site who have lost money (and everyone who has bought these greenbelt plots has lost money - they are now worth £500 at most) but owning land in the country comes with obiligations to maintain grassland, hedgerows etc. If you can't maintain the land you should not have bought it - once grazing gets overgrown with scrub trees, ragwort etc it takes a lot of time and money to return it to use.
105. Baza18/09/2007 14:10:00
I purchased a plot of land at Pilgrims vale at the back end of last year from rubicon. I recieved all my paper work from the solicitors in november of 2006 and all seemed well untill the FSA was called in and that was the end of rubicon. Moore stephens has been in touch with me this year and asked me if i would be interested in the purchase of any of the remaining land. Can anyone tell me if i have chucked away my money or can something still be salvaged from this mess. I have a feeling that i have just been conned out of my life savings. Yours Baza
106. Mori26/09/2007 16:54:44
It's such a shame that you get this rogue companies out there taking everyones hard on cash. It's even more of a shame that people are stupid enough to spend there life savings on a product they clearly didn't research properly. I bought land across the UK, with & without the help of a land investment company. I've made money & lost money, but the most important thing is that I research the product & the company I was dealing with.
If you've been scammed, then you don't deserve the money you earnt....
Mori James.
107. PropertySCAM26/09/2007 16:59:52
A bit harsh, Mori. If you'd ever met any of these land plot salesmen you'd know just how persuasive they can be...
108. Tris18427/09/2007 10:01:05
I have money invested in a Land Banking company, which I am worried is being investigated by FSA & dreading the day it gets shut down without seeing a return on my investment. I am interested in taking civil action, can anyone tell me how I can contact Civil Lawyers such as Paul Smith?
Please get in touch
Tris184@gmail.com
109. Mori27/09/2007 12:18:28
PropertySCAM,
I know exactly how persuasive salesmen in general can be, it's there job.
All I'm trying to say is that the people who have been scammed should have known better. You should only buy from companies which are reputable, which aren’t based at "Flat A, Crapper Road, Merseyside" and which have at least contracts & legal paperwork made up by actually lawyers/solicitors.
Just to explain my point in more detail; when you go to buy a car...do you go to the dodgy salesmen round the corner or do you buy from a reputable car trading firm?
Lets not be stupid here people, if you have bought a plot & signed contracts you will never get your money back from the company. Your only way out is to sell it on.
Mori James
110. smithy02/10/2007 13:46:02
To Mori
Your quote "You should only buy from companies which are reputable, which aren’t based at "Flat A, Crapper Road, Merseyside" and which have at least contracts & legal paperwork made up by actually lawyers/solicitors"
Property Spy plc were a company operating from fully furnished modern registered offices. They were in St Albans town centre for all to see and visit. They had the contracts and legal paperwork drawn up by lawyers/solicitors - reputable ones.
All paperwork signed by buyers did state - ' we cannot guarantee planning permission will be given'. So yes, its no wonder people were initially bought into the idea - the sales team at Property Spy - the majority were proper sales people who were explaining what they were told to say by the M.D of the company - Andrew Beckingham. Yes - the company sold land that didnt stand any chance really of gaining planning permission for 30 years + but they did their job well - and most of the land sold was next to sites where green belt land had been given planning permisssion.
I am totally against what they have done and am not sticking up for Prop Spy - however people were taken in because they were a legitimate set up company. Only after 6 years of trading have they closed down.
Oh and yes - if you want to make money on your plot you purchased - sell it on. Its the only way people who purchased land from Prop Spy have made money. On average you should earn a couple of grand from it - but not much more. Plus Prop Spy have a clause that they get 3% of the resale price However now the company only exists as a 'magazine' you may be able to fight this.
As for car salesman, dont get me started on that. There are reputable car trading firms out there - who still make the prices up as they go along. So beit a dodgy car sales place or a well known one - that doesnt make much different these days - believe me.
111. GARY MORAN14/10/2007 18:44:32
hi to all,i too have invested in country wide.i have had a plot now for 18 months at corley has anyone else got a plot there too.??i was going to buy a plot 3years ago at a site at cricklade near swindon ive past this site a few times and its allready been develope, so fingers crossed we mite have invetsed in a reputable company!!
112. GARY14/10/2007 19:15:13
hi to all,i too have invested in country wide.i have had a plot now for 18 months at corley has anyone else got a plot there too.??i was going to buy a plot 3years ago at a site at cricklade near swindon ive past this site a few times and its allready been developed, so fingers crossed we mite have invetsed in a reputable company!!
worried
113. comment posted by [removed]23/10/2007 09:12:24
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
114. Mori24/10/2007 12:31:07
Gangster are we?
You wont find him m8.
Your money is gone, only thing you can do is sell it on or dare I say it...apply for planning.
Mori James
115. Cat28/10/2007 15:28:56
Dear all Pilgrim's Vale investors,
I am still very confused to the current situation with the land? i assume they have sold all the land and now do we jus sit and wait? or is this more serious matter? i have read some of the postings and some people believe this is a CON? i am really worried and would like to know whether i should sit and wait for development or planning permission OR do i take further actions such as pulling out??
help please
116. KAISER30/10/2007 16:19:53
Pilgrim,s vale ,can anyone help,any address /website/share holders group .Is Masha not advertising the same site as the rubicon did (on the map they look exactly the same) Any one knows wht is going on now.
117. KAISER30/10/2007 16:42:37
rubicons pilgrims vale is it still alive. Any one to contact with/managementgrou/website or help from any where.
118. Tris18431/10/2007 11:57:32
To Mori James:
Hi Mori, I think I agree with you that it seems the only way we will get any money back any time soon is to trade the plot or to get planning permission ofcourse. But can I ask, when you say to sell the plot, is there a good way of doing this without having to trade through the company? only because the land banking company's will pass you off with excuse after excuse so to not trade your land for you because obviously they want to keep your money!
does anyone know if a piece of land is not yet registered in your name is there a way of pulling out of the deal after 14 days??
any help much much appreciated, i wish you all the best of luck.
email: Tris184@gmail.com
119. comment posted by [removed]17/11/2007 15:03:51
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
120. comment posted by [removed]17/11/2007 15:05:41
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
121. Walter21/11/2007 03:35:53
Does any one know of a company called "The Property Partnership"?
122. Pablo Byron10/12/2007 17:22:26
I (foolishly) paid £25000 for a site in Scholes Meadow from the English land partnership in August 2006.I have receipt for the money and was told that I would receive my title deeds within a few months. I have heard nothing since then!. Has anyone had a similar problem with the ELP and if so what can be done to rectify the situation?
Pablo
123. Monica07/01/2008 12:17:25
I purchased a plot of land in Hilton Grange Bram hope in Leeds from Hayden James this company is a scam. The company number and website address is no longer available. They are now advertising on Choice home Aquisiton Website still under Hayden James. I will be reporting them to the FSA.
124. Reece Young10/01/2008 20:39:40
My Partner and I also were two suckers who fell for the con line of a so called senior land consultant at Rubicon estates. We bought 3 plots of land at Pilgrims Vale and were also as many others, horrified to know that we had been ripped off by this con artist.
The thing what I cant get round my head is this... My partner rang the liquidators yesterday 09 Jan 2008 and could only manage to speak to the secretary as she claimed there was no one there to speak to. After threatening court action. Within 10 minutes of leaving this message a suit was on the phone stuttering away. It only took them about 6 months to return numerous phone messages left with the secretary. Anyway according to the suit he claimed that all the land at Pilgrims Vale has now been sold and that the solicitors were claiming planning permission on the land investors behalf. In other words us lot.
The other thing.. Take a look at this and look at Maidstone Kent. http://www.mashaestates.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=40
These people claim to be selling land that has already been sold out according to an official flyer I received from Rubicon Estates on 12 May 2006. I still have all the emails and attachments. All the photos are the same and the website is set out just about the same as well. The red area highlighted is the one I am talking about. Can I have your thoughts people. Regards.
125. PropertySCAM11/01/2008 08:46:50
According to Companies House, Masha Estates (reg no 05475680) is overdue filing a return which was due on 6 July last year. The registered address for Masha Estates is a residential address in Barry (Vale of Glamorgan, Wales).
You may just be looking at an old and abandoned web site. There's nothing there to suggest that it is new.
126. Reece Young15/01/2008 19:50:10
Well after we have all stopped moaning. What do we intend to do about this situation? How about us all getting in contact with each other and instead of forming a managment company to get planning permission what we all know will never happen, why don't we form a gang both mental and finantial and get our money back????
127. Pradeep Agrawal18/01/2008 10:39:57
I agree with Reece Young we should either form a managment company subject to experience in the investors group or seek financial compensation on plots that were sold to each of us.
Please let us know who is interested and where and when we can meet to take this forward with the liquidators.
128. Jacqueline Attwood19/01/2008 13:57:11
Has anyone had dealings with Gladwish. If so have you had the title deeds and is the company a bonifide company selling land which will in the end belong freehold to me?
129. Reece Young21/01/2008 12:46:29
I think the best way to move forward is for us to get in touch with the liquidators and to ask them to add our email address to thier yearly letter they send out to creditors. That way everyone involved in this has a way of contact. The letter should be sent out by them in March. If no one starts this ball rolling then we will all sit there scratching our heads wondering what we could have done.
I for one wanna seriously screw the owners of that scam company Rubicon Estates and with enough people putting money in the pot, we will be able to afford the best lawers for the job and let the owners deal with that. However I don't think we should only fight our own corners. I think that we should all (as in everyone who lost money in this way regardless of what company they bought the land from) join forces and fight these scum as a collective interest.
Enough talk people and enough moaning, we WILL NOT get our money back that way. I would like everyone else who has been scammed in this way to get in touch with thier liquidators (if any) and do the same. After we know the amount of interested parties then the rest of us can all join forces.
Let me know what you all think of this idea.
Regards.
130. degernier22/01/2008 17:57:08
To reese i would be very happy to join in the fight against rubicon and others like them. I just dont have a clue what i can do. I have tried many times to contact moore and stephen to no avail.
131. pilgrimsvale04/02/2008 10:20:00
This is an update from a purchaser of land from Rubicon Estates and specifically in response to several postings about Pilgrims Vale.
As you no doubt are aware, the FSA deemed Rubicon as to have established a CIS each time it created a Management Company for the sites it sold. The FSA then forced Rubicon into a state of Insolvency 1 year ago.
What was not so obvious, was that several sites, fully “sold out” by Rubicon to investors and operating quite independently of Rubicon, were also deemed CIS’s by the FSA and told to cease “Trading”.
This meant they could not seek planning on their site nor sell to a developer, as was the original intention. This was a critical issue for several hundred people who had purchased plots from Rubicon , had the plots legally conveyed to them and had all the shares of the respective management company’s issued to them so that they could control the sites going forward.
After some months of detailed dialogue with the FSA, these Management Companies were written to by the FSA, an extract of this letter below :-
“The FSA takes a serious view of all breaches of the Act, and we have been carefully considering what action should be taken in respect of the possibility of the site management companies continuing to operate a collective investment scheme at their respective sites, After due consideration, however, and bearing in mind the FSA's view that this is a difficult case, it has been decided that should the site management companies continue to operate as originally intended, the public interest would not be served by taking any action towards prosecution or any other proceedings in this case, and the FSA would therefore propose not to pursue any further enquiries”
So the plotholders have full title to their land and the Management Companies have resumed their activities, albeit with a 6month hiccup which in the grand scheme of things is effectively an irrelevant delay.
So we come to Pilgrims Vale.
Moore Stephens main interest in all of this is to maximise monies for Rubicon’s proven and accepted creditors and pay their fees. In the case of Pilgrims Vale they sought and received FSA approval to sell the remaining plots so that the Pilgrims Vale management company can in due course operate as originally intended in the same way as the fully sold out Rubicon sites. The liquidators have agreed a sale of these plots with a purchaser and the sale is proceeding to contract at the moment. Moore Stephens have no financial interest in the Management Companies themselves and as such are being extremely helpful in facilitating their future by acting in the manner that they are.
Here are the details of the Pilgrims Vale Management Company:
Company name : Pilgrims Vale Management Company (Maidstone) Ltd
Companies House Number : 05668379
Anyone wishing to help the 2 existing Directors (plot owners like you), email me back and we shall take it from there.
Pilgrimsvale@aol.co.uk
132. brahan27/02/2008 14:07:34
Although Rubicon are gone, those who bought the land still have deed and title right? Why can't you as a group make an application for planning?
133. richard18/03/2008 19:56:38
hi i to have brought land from p spy in rothersthorpe.any one else in the same situation please contact me thanks:angry
134. helpful127/04/2008 12:59:50
I have read with interest the post made on 04/02/08. Surely the reactivation of the management companies is against the FSMA 2000 and therefore the Directors pose the risk of promoting an unauthorised CIS and face severe penalties. Having viewed several of the Rubicon sites none have a realistic chance of any Planning permission for the next 20 years, several have access problems and are contained within conservation areas.
Excatly what is the role of Gary Selvidge in all this??
How can a Planning Consultancy work for an illegal company (in regards to the FSMA 2000)?
The value of the land even with PP is nil as it is subject to an unauthorised CIS.
Mr Selvidge is pushing for the management companies to start trading which potentially can have serious events for the purchasers. The only aspect the FSA has given clearance is for plot owners to sell plots amongst themselves - anyone selling to a person outside of the existing structure is guilty of promoting a unauthorised CIS.
The liquidation of Rubicon will not see any money available to any plot owner, plus why does Mr Selvidge have a close relationship with all the directors of the management companies???:-
135. Lewis01/05/2008 11:53:55
looks like uk land investment has also closed down!!!
any one know why?
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