Land banking and collective investmentTypical land banking offer before FSA intervention
You and other investors bought plots of land from a company which retained a portion of the site for itself and engaged planning professionals to push the entire site through relevant review processes and achieve a change of designation. Following this, the company would then negotiate the sale of the entire site to a developer and individual plot owners would take a substantial profit, less whatever portion of it was subject to the clawback clause in their contract with the land banker.
Given the general presumption against planning permission on green belt sites this was never a likely outcome, but it was a collective investment subject to FSA authorisation.
FSA guidance on land investment schemes now includes:
Q20. I run a business arranging for the sale of individual plots of development land to investors who are also required to use my services in obtaining planning permission for or disposing of the land as a whole (or both). Might I need to be authorised?
Yes, this is likely to be the case. This will be because the role you have in obtaining planning permission or in negotiating and effecting the sale of the land (or both) may mean that you are operating a collective investment scheme (see Q4). The purpose or effect of the arrangements would appear to be to enable investors, as owners of parts of the land, to receive profits arising from your services in obtaining planning permission or arranging disposal in respect of the land as a whole. If the planning or disposal process is such that individual investors do not have day-to-day control over it, the arrangements are likely to amount to a collective investment scheme, and to operate it you would need to be authorised or exempt. The restrictions on financial promotions referred to in Q18 would also need to be considered.
As a result of this, the FSA and DTI are currently acting against a number of land banking companies suspected of operating collective investment schemes without FSA authorisation and this has led to a change of emphasis by many land bankers.
Typical land banking offer after FSA intervention
You and other investors now buy plots of land from a company and wait.
The general presumption against planning permission on green belt sites remains and now you need the resources to lobby for a change of designation alone.
So, did you or did you not buy a collective investment?
If you bought land from a land banking company before about March this year, you may have bought a collective investment even if the land banker who sold you the land has since changed his policy. If you bought more recently, you may still have bought a collective investment as implementing a land banking scheme in a manner unambiguously compliant with FSA requirements is far from straightforward and it is probable that some land bankers still fail to comply.
In either case, we'd love to hear from you.
If you want to share your experience please leave a comment below or, if you prefer anonymity, drop us an email at the address on the left.
1. Nan31/08/2006 11:40:27
A well known person to me bought a piece of land from a land banking compay called Rubicon Estates. It was like a collective investment plan which will be manged by group of plot owners. They term it as a management company. The vendors solicitors are Kidd Rapinet. The Rubicon estates recomends the buyers to use vendors solicitors Kidd Rapinet. The reason they say is it is free of cost. I think there something fishy about this company. Please let the FSA and DTI investigate it. The Rubicon Estates uses high pressure agrressive sales tactics.
2. comment posted by [removed]01/09/2006 09:40:46
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
3. Magdalene04/09/2006 13:26:49
From the definition above, I would have bought my plots from English Land Partnership via collective investment. Bought it in 2004.
Does this new policy invalidates my purchases? What should I do and how does it affect me?
I found English Land Partnership fishy only after I paid full for my plots. How can I get FSA and DTI to investigate them?
4. PropertySCAM04/09/2006 13:49:43
Without seeing details of the contract you signed and any supporting pre-sales literature, we cannot be certain that you were sold a collective investment though this does seem probable.
In either case, your purchases are probably valid (that is to say, you do own the land), though if in doubt you should not rely on our advice and should consult a solicitor.
As for getting the FSA and DTI to investigate, there is currently no formal process that we are aware of by which a person can privately refer a land banker for investigation. However, the FSA is aware of most if not all such firms and will probably get around to it sooner or later anyway.
We're not sure why you'd want to expedite this though. Sadly, even if the FSA does intervene, it is unlikely that you or any other investor would ever get any money back.
5. Danny Monroe11/09/2006 19:47:36
Not all companies are the same, I've had a very good level of service from the company I purchased with, they update me on the sites i've purchased, I get newsletters, I even have spoken to their planners and visited their offices. They gave me all the ins and outs and I think everyone must do their own due diligence, not everyone should be tarnished with the same brush... Yes there are rouges out there, but some companies are genuine.
The company I purchased with still keep in contact with me and provide regular seminars...
So i think some of these comments dont hold true on all accounts
6. PropertySCAM11/09/2006 20:18:31
So, what did you buy?
A plot of land or something more? Does your supplier help with onward sale, gaining planning permission or any other part of the exit strategy?
If they do and other buyers of plots in the same site enjoy similar benefits, then you probably have a collective investment scheme and if it is not properly authorised by the FSA, you could have trouble.
7. Trevor Dennington14/09/2006 22:00:16
If the land is managed as a whole (which is certainly the case if the vendor reserves the right to gain planning permission and subsequently sell the whole field on behalf of owners) and the owners do not control day-to-day management decisions about the land, then it is a Collective Investment Scheme.
Operating a CIS without authorisation is a criminal offence.
8. Nic19/10/2006 11:46:49
Anyone invested with Sinclair Deville's Abbey View!? They keep claiming that they are different, but to me it sounds like a collective investment scheme as they sell it on to a developer am I right!? and they are not registered with the FSA, claim they don't have to! Which would make the illegal!?
9. BERT13/11/2006 18:25:26
If found sinclair deville really dodgy after they sent me a letter devaluing their product.
There are a few legit companies though and I've made around 2K in the bank from a resale!
10. ANON15/11/2006 11:00:45
I have recently been contacted by a company called Countrywide Land Holdings regarding possible investment opportunities of purchasing parcels of land in the South East of England. Presently awaiting brochure of these opportunities.
Its been an eye opener reading your site and its comments posted on it.
I was told that the company would buy a plot of land, divide this up into parcels, sell these parcels of land to investors and may even retain a portion of this land for themselves. They would then lobby the council/planning authority for a change of use and obtain planning permission. Finally it would sell this land to a developer/builder at a much higher price and then obviously give the original investor their slice of the pie.
Is this legit? Is this a CIS? Are thry authorised?
11. PropertySCAM15/11/2006 11:23:36
"Is this a CIS? Are thry authorised?"
If it does indeed work as you describe in that the party selling you the land has ultimate control over its final disposition then yes, it is a collective investment scheme. Without seeing the exact terms and conditions attached to the sale it is impossible to be absolutely sure of this though.
Operating a CIS without either authorisation by the FSA or exemption which, so far as we are aware, can only be granted by the Treasury is a criminal offence.
No land banking scheme in the UK is currently authorised as a CIS or has been granted exemption.
12. George18/11/2006 00:18:56
Good Value/Bad value
I have recently enquired about land banking through my Independent Financial Adviser. He had already done all the research for me and was able to demonstrate to me that there are companies out there at completely different ends of the spectrum. Many companies seem to hide the true cost behind the seemingly affordable plot prices!
The worst my IFA found was a company called 'UK Land Investments Group', selling plots in 'Royal Berkshire' from only £22,500 per plot. However, the plot size is only 230 sq metres. This equated to just under £400,000 per acre!!!!! Good value, I think not!
The best value found was through a company called 'Development Land Holdings' who only operate through Independent Financial Advisers. Their plots at 4 or 5 different sites averaged about £8000 for 800 sq metres (a 1/5th acre) plot, working out at only £40,000 per acre! Much better value! They are also in discussions with the FSA to be Authorised or Exempt and their literature also includes Risk Warnings on every page.
I know where my money is likely to go! My advise would be to use a Financial Adviser as they will be able to research the market on your behalf.
13. PropertySCAM20/11/2006 09:24:57
Thanks for the advertisment, "George". We'll let that comment stand for now but, for the benefit of our other readers, will note that:
- There is a difference between price and value. The fact that you have found plots with lower purchase prices than the norm for land banking sites does not necessarily make them good value.
- Is it a CIS? It certainly has some characteristics of a CIS and it is not yet authorised, nor ever likely to be exempt. It is also evidently a live scheme - you could invest today if you wished to do so. Operating a CIS without FSA authorisation is against the law.
14. Alan24/11/2006 11:13:42
Does anyone know anything about "Hambrook and Greenstock" ?
Thanks
15. PropertySCAM24/11/2006 12:25:56
Not a UK company. Registered in Switzerland, apparently.
Does not operate a collective investment scheme. You just buy a land plot and hope for the best.
The usual problem with this is simply what is the exit strategy? You can't sell just one plot to a developer; you'd need to sell the whole site. How are you going to organise that?
What does Essex County Council say about the site at Sible Hedingham? What does the local plan say? Where is the existing settlement boundary? Is the site green belt? Does any other special protection apply?
These are just some of the questions to which you need satisfactory answers.
Also, please read these:
http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsAlerts1.php?id=65
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/fivemyths.htm
16. Michael24/11/2006 12:33:31
Has anyone got any information on International land sales and Development or their offshoot United Plot Owners? The UPA website does nort function and ILSAD have left Guildford for kingston Upon Thames without leaving the forwarding address 
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has invested in plots of land particularly Burpham in Surrey - Scam 
17. KS30/11/2006 11:03:45
UKLI.. Scammers or not?
Very impressive offices, seem to have a board of planners who know what they are doing, lots of genuine people working for them, but after reading about scams/land plot disasters and roll ups, not sure whether this is such a good idea or not anymore.. Also company called Glebe Estates in Henley Birmingham, whats the score with them?
18. Nigel Walter01/12/2006 09:40:23
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
Thank you KS for your kind comments regarding UK Land Investments.
Unfortunatley there are a number of companies that over-sell or mis-sell their product to unsuspecting individuals. There are companies right across the spectrum as has been pointed out in the discussion threads.
Buying Strategic land can be a very good investment but there are a number of things you must take into account before considering to purchase:
1. You must visit a company's offices like you have and meet the Land Buying and Planning Team - what are their expertise? My team is headed by by Brian Smith, who previously was the MD of Wimpey Homes Strategic Land Buying business and the team you met have already had 45,000 homes built on strategic land they have promoted with the Local Authority.
When you do meet a business get them to explain fully why a site has good potential - what are the housing numbers for the Local Authority? Where are they in the new emerging Local Development Framework system? What are their plans for promoting the site? Have they carried out any independent research into the site? Ask to see all this information before you make a decision. If you are still not sure then don't invest.
2. Check their financial records at Companies House - do they good financial strength and track record? Do they reserve any monies to cover the planning costs - we reserve up to £500,000 PER SITE to promote our own land.
George (12) the comment made to your point by Propertyscam is a very good one - it is not the value you pay for the land you just need to consider - it is the return you could make that you a paying for and the service you are offered - if you look at companies house you will see that as a business UK Land Investments make less than 12% profit on its activities because so much money is invested in sourcing and promoting our land - the actual cost of the land is in fact a small part of cost incurred to do this professionally.
3. Remember this is a meduim term investment - typically 5-7 years - only invest if you are prepared to wait this length of time. Investing in Strategic Land can be a good investment as part of a wider investment portfolio but we would not recommend you invest in this concept if you may need you cash out before this.
4. Are they offering you a collective investment scheme? If they are then are they authorised to do so?
There a few points worth highlighting on this issue:
When the FSA perimeter guidance notes came into force last March we did two things; firstly we had our product and service immediately reviewed by a top Solictor firm in London and an even more eminent QC, who is a leading expert on the FSA and regulations, to ensure what we offer following the new guidance notes could not be considered a collective investment scheme.
There are some important points to always bear in mind to understand what constitiutes a collective invesment scheme - if any other company offers you a service to apply for planning permission on your behalf they are offering a collective investment scheme - if they are not authorised to offer a regulated investment scheme they are committing a criminal offense.
We do not expect any company to be authorised to offer a regulated scheme - they almost certainly would be entitled to offer an UN-regulated collective scheme which prohibits the promotion of such a scheme direct to consumers - it must be done through intermediaries such as IFAs.
Since the perimeter guidance notes have come into force we do not offer a collective planning service, not least as this is not key to the delivery of the potential returns you could make on strategic land.
This comes with land being allocated or re-zoned for future development - at this point in the planning and development cycle the land becomes very attractive to developers as they know that in the future will now be able to obtain outline planning permission and build on the site - hence the dramtic increase in the value of the land - and this is the stage where you would obtain the best potential annualised return on strategic land.
We are expert at promoting our own land to be allocated, we are not a developer, and any company offering to do this for you is not only potentially committing a criminal offence but is also, in our view, missing the key point of strategic land - ie to obtain the best potential annualised returns.
If anyone has any questions please e-mail me on nwalter@ukland.com where I will be happy to answer any individual queries, alternatively please post your questions on this web site and I will be happy to answer any questions in an open forum, although I can't promise that it will immediately but will endeavour to answer any questions within a week.
Regards
Nigel Walter
Group Managing Director
UK Land Investments
19. miles hayward06/12/2006 09:26:04
A strong word of warning.! I am in the very unfortunate position of having lost all of my investment in a Land Banking scheme exactly as those described above.
"Land Heritage UK" offered an interesting opportunity to invest in two different sites that appeared to have development opportunities. I researched thoroughly the investment opportunity and was satisfied with the prospective risk/reward profile. The one aspect I did not take into account was that the company and/or their advisors had not thoroughly understood or chose to ignore the compliance requirements. Land Heritage were informed in early 2006 by the FSA that they were operating a Collective Investment Scheme and advised them that they legally were obliged to offer to refund investors monies. Following a letter sent out by Land Heritage, 20% of all investors (equating to circa £1,000,000) asked for their monies back. Land Heritage was unable to meet that demand and so subsequently went into "Voluntary liquidation." The total amount of lost monies looks to be around £5,000,000. Following a meeting with the liquidators last Friday it seems extremely unlikely that any investor will see their money back. Whilst I understand fully the risks involved in alternative investment and highly speculative schemes, I feel that there has been an extreme case of negligence on the part of Land Heritage UK. I do believe in the concept of Land Banking and that Land is becoming an increasing valuable commodity with a growing need for housing (as described recently by Kate Barker). HOWEVER, be very very careful about investing without the protection of the FSA and remember you DO NOT get 400% returns without a very very high risk of losing ALL of your capital. There are many many scams out there.
20. The Finchampstead Society06/12/2006 14:46:21
Re: Posting No 18 – Nigel Walter
1. In previous communications with Brian Smith we have been told that he is UKLI’s “Strategic Land Director” but also early in September 2006 we started to receive emails from him in which he was described as the Managing Director of RD Planning and Land Consultants (RD PLC?). Brian Smith kindly gave us a copy of some “research” on the Finchampstead site and also a copy of UKLI’s audited accounts for its second year of trading ending 28 February 2006. We noticed RD PLC has the same office address as UKLI.
Who owns RD PLC? Has any truly specific independent research been carried out on the Finchampstead site and if so, who by and can we have a copy?
2. There is nothing in UKLI’s accounts of 28 February 2005 to show that large sums have been “reserved” for promotion of their sites. Are the audited accounts available yet for UKLI’s third financial year ending 28 February 2006? We have been told by Brian Smith that UKLI have about 2 dozen sites and we would be grateful if Nigel Walter would list all of these sites showing the approx amounts of money spent on promotional costs to date and also the amounts of “reserved” monies still to spend so that UKLI’s claim can be verified by potential “investors”.
We would be grateful if Nigel Walter would explain how he made the calculation giving UKLI a less than 12% profit margin. For the 28 February 2005 accounts the turnover is stated as £23216593 and the profit before tax is £4328411. This gives a profit margin for the year of nearly 19%.
For readers’ interest on 28 February 2005 Mr Bally Chohan was the 100% shareholder, owner and managing director of UKLI. Mr Chohan also had large financial interests in and was a director of a number of other companies at that time which had received commercial loans amounting to a sum in excess of £750000 from UKLI. Additionally as the 100% shareholder Mr Chohan received a dividend of £250000 for the financial year ending 28 February 2005. UKLI owed Mr Chohan for personal loans amounting to £59056 on 28 February 2004 and this was reduced to £3052 during the financial year ending 28 February 2005.
UKLI’s accounts state that there were on average 15 employees in the financial year ending 28 February 2004 and this increased to 25 for the subsequent year ending 28 February 2005.
There is a curious item in the accounts stating that at 28 February 2005 UKLI own a company called “Whips,Stables and Saddles Ltd” and that it is a dormant company valued at £100. Also the accounts it also states that during the financial year ending 28 February 2005 UKLI paid “Whips, Stables and Saddles Ltd” for land amounting to the sum of £3138929. Please can Nigel Walter explain who actually received this money and where has it gone if the company is only valued at £100. Also how can “Whips, Stables and Saddles Ltd” be a dormant company if it has been paid £3138929. We made enquiries at Companies house about 3 months ago and found out that Companies House’s status for “Whips, Stables and Saddles Ltd” was “ active – proposal to strike off “ because no audited accounts had been submitted to them for some time.
21. The Finchampstead Society06/12/2006 15:01:36
Re:- Posting No 18 (Continued) - Nigel Walter
3. People with local planning knowledge in Finchampstead consider that a 20 to 30 year timescale for the UKLI site to be seriously considered for rezoning would be a realistic estimate. Indeed since UKLI bought the 2 fields in question and split them up into so many plots with so many owners who are “not acting collectively” they believe that nobody will be able to trace all of the owners and buy all of the plots to develop the land in any case.
4. We believe the FSA’s definition of what is a collective investment scheme requires further testing and clarification and that the jury “is still out” on whether UKLI’s latest modifications to their “business model” really do successfully avoid FSA regulation or not.
For reader’s interest this is an extract of the Finchampstead Society’s notes of their meeting with UKLI of 25 July 2006:-
“Jim May asked how it would be possible to get all the investors working in concert for planning permission or any other decisions if there are 300 of them dotted around the world. Smith replied that there is a Register of Owners and that UKLI would keep them all informed. This reply did not satisfy Jim May or Sydney Paulden. Jim May went on to say in his opinion the whole concept of “landbanking” was flawed because it would prove to be impossible to keep a “Register of Owners” upto date. As time passed by more and more of the owners would move residence, die or give up on the investment and UKLI or HM Land Registry would not be informed in all cases. This scenario would make the actual sale of the whole of the site to a housebuilder such as George Wimpey Homes practically impossible.”
We welcome the opportunity of repeating this question to Nigel Walter on this forum
22. Nigel Walter06/12/2006 18:47:49
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
To Finchampstead Society
Thank you for your comments. In answer to your questions:
1. RD Planning and Land Consultants is a trading name we have set up for the Land Buying and Planning division of the group, as moving forward we are likely to be involved with a number of projects outside of UKLI land projects only.
2. If you care to look at the accounts posted for the dates you mention you will see under item 14 creditors falling after 12 months, which for 2005 was £7,050,000 and for 2004 £2,350,000. These are funds reserved for promoting sites.
If you look at turnover of £23,216,593 you will also see a net profit of £2,774,540 - this is precisely 11.95% of turnover - you cannot take a profit line BEFORE tax as a net profit number. In addition to this there was a negative prior year adjustment of £914,540 reducing the profit number to under £1.9m, or to 7.9% of turnover.
Whips,Stables and Saddles Ltd was a company that purchased a land site, which was later then transferred to UKLI and shut down.
3. I fully respect your views regarding the planning potential of our site at Finchampstead as you obviously live locally.
However, I do not agree with your assessment of the site and allocation potential.
4. Similarly I do not agree with the view expressed regarding the difficulty of keeping a register up to date and we take great measures to ensure we track every client and they keep their records up to date with HM Land Registry.
With regards to collective investments I can assure you that as a business we have taken expert advice to ensure that we operate in a professional, ethical and legal fashion, as you would expect any prudent business to do so.
Again, whilst I fully respect and understand your views and motivations we are very professional at what we do and always work closely with a local community over a number of years to ensure that any development proposed on our land would include a number of enhancements to the local community as well.
Currently we are finalising the numerous environmental and other reports for our land as part of our project plan. This will help us assess the best potential way to develop a project.
Any local development can be contentious but fundamentally in the UK there is a chronic shortfall of homes and the affordability issues, especially for key workers, has reached a point where millions of people simply cannot afford to buy their own home or step on the property ladder.
This has to be addressed and the planning system is there in place to make decisions as to where any development may occur for each Local Authority to achieve their housing target.
Best regards
Nigel Walter
23. The Finchampstead Society07/12/2006 00:00:07
Re: Posting No 22 - Nigel Walter
Thank you for your reply but we need to repeat some questions not yet answered and have further questions to ask:-
1. Has any truly specific independent research been carried out on the Finchampstead site and if so, who by and can we have a copy?
2. Are you willing to give us a full breakdown of item 14 of UKLI's accounts at 28 February 2005 so we can see the sums allocated to specific sites?Who owned Whips, Stables and Saddles Ltd when it was paid £3138929 for the land that it owned? When are you going to submit accounts to Companies House for this Company or are you just going to let it be struck off?
3. Our assessment of the potential rezoning timescale of the Finchampstead site being 20 - 30 years is the result of discussions with a local professional planning consultant.
4. Unless there is a legally binding agreement to make your "investors" act collectively we remain of the opnion your scheme for the Finchampstead site is not viable for the reasons previously given.
24. Nigel Walter07/12/2006 09:11:12
Homepage: http://www.ukland.com
In answer to your questions - yes we have had a very detailed report carried out by Buro Happold on the site - if you wish to come to our office we would be happy to show you.
We allocate £500,000 PER SITE to promote our land. Whips Stables and Saddles Ltd has made no profit and was used simply for a land purchase - again please come in and I would be happy to discuss any element of our accounts with you.
We have a Land Buying and Planning team with over 100 years experience in promoting strategic land and an excellent track record and experience - this is a medium term project over 5 to 7 years and the planning system is there to evaluate the pros and cons of any particular location in relation to other projects - again please e-mail me and I would be happy for you to meet the team at our head office and discuss in an open and collaborative way on how we go about our business.
I am concerned as many people are on this website, and in general, regarding businesses which over sell or mis-sell their proposition and I believe a combination of FSA regulation, self-regulation and trading standards are all required to ensure that businesses represent their proposition responsibly.
Equally I do understand that locally potential development can be considered negatively but no one can doubt that there is an urgent requirement for more homes and that Wokingham has one of the highest housing targets to meet in the next 20 years. However we always work closely with local communities, as part of the process for promoting our own land, to ensure that any projects also benefit local communities and again I would be delighted to show you two projects which will go to committee in the next 3 months (the first one in 2 weeks time) to demonstrate how we do this.
With regard to your final point, we disagree with your point of view as I am sure you'd expect us to, but I do respect your opinion as I am sure you do mine.
25. The Finchampstead Society07/12/2006 10:15:17
Re:- Posting No. 24 - Nigel Walter
There is not much point continuing with the current exchange of views.
Our final point is that we remain very sceptical and our position is not likely to change until you actually become FSA registered. We note from your recent letter to Greg Mulholland MP published on this site that you claim to be "several months down the line" in discussions with the FSA on this matter. Please inform us what is stopping you becoming FSA registered now and why have you made so many changes in the last 7 months to your business model to avoid (or evade?) it?
26. Sean07/12/2006 11:07:34
Re: UKLI and Finchampstead Society debacle that has been going back and forth....
Whilst it makes interesting reading folks, at the end of the day, in my opinion, there is NO alternative to a face-to-face meeting. Nigel has had the courtesy to invite the Society to their offices - why doesn't the Society extend the same courtesy and go and sort this out in person? In my view (being in business myself), it is normal practice to have several different companies associated with each other - does not mean that it is in anyway suspect (horses for courses). At least if the Society goes and meets UKLI in person, you can air your views and get the answers directly. Let us know if this happens and any outcomes.
27. ANON06/01/2007 01:29:09
I recently purchased a set of plots from Rubicon Estates Ltd, at sites in aylesford and alconbury.
I was informed by their salesmen that they had many years experience in land banking and were the only UK company that had an association with the Pensions Agency, regularly helping their clients to acquire land as part of their pension planning.
They also told me that they had a working relationship with Kidd Rapinet Solicitors. I was informed that if I used their services the fee would be waived, so naturally I did so as again I researched the solicitors and they appeared,and still do, to be legitimate.
I researched the company for a few weeks but unfortunately was unable to find any negative press. I have since been informed by the company that they are being investigated by the FSA for running a collective investment scheme.
Having done further research it now seems that I have fallen victim of these rogue traders. What are my chances of retrieving any of my money? Is it legal to sell on the plots at the present time whilst the company are under investigation? Are there any measures I can take to try and recoup my money.
28. comment posted by [removed]09/01/2007 13:11:26
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
29. smithy11/01/2007 16:07:21
Just for the record this website was created by Property Spy and is owned by them. The other company it details- Perfect Plot is also part of the umbrella namely Property Spy. The site details other associates of the company. So be aware - its a little biased if your looking for solid land investment advice.
http://www.uklanddirectory.org.uk/investment-plots.htm
30. PropertySCAM11/01/2007 16:20:57
That page contains a list of "Land Investment Companies".
One of the listed companies is United Land Holdings PLC (company number 4992197).
Yes, it is the same one.
http://www.insolvency-service.co.uk/viewpiucasedetails.asp?companyname=United%20Land%20Holdings%20PLC
Oops.
31. Smithy12/01/2007 08:42:13
and just for a bit of Friday humour. One of PSpys new companies is called carbonfreelife . That too is advertised on uk land directory. So on the one hand they want to save all those tree and help the environment and on the other hand they want to parcel and sell off bits of land in the hope that one day it will gain planning - and make a mess of the land in the process. 
32. comment posted by [removed]17/01/2007 19:22:45
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
33. Smithy19/01/2007 16:09:09
Yes Gary you are quite right people buy the land not the company. However they are still having investigations from government organisations. On going as we speak.
PSpy have not turned the business around. They are doing the same as they did from day one - the only difference is they are more companies under the umbrella name of PSpy. UKLI - yes they do appear to have improved. Although they still use the Royal Coat of Arms - when they have no royal connections and are not suppose to use.
34. Paul Smith19/01/2007 18:35:43
Homepage: http://www.whiskyscam.co.uk
In reply to Nan it never ceases to amaze me why people fail to take entirely independent legal advice when buying plots. The fact that the seller suggests using their own solicitos should immediately raise alarm bells.Under Law Society rules solicitos are only allowed to act for both parties in certain circumstances - for instance where the consideration is below £10,000, where both parties give their written consent and no conflict of interest arises. I think you may have grounds for complaint.
35. Jennifer27/01/2007 04:05:36
May PScam tell me. I receive the notification from my salesman from a plot-selling company that I believe is CIS. The notice is about the registry will be taken long time as policy changed. When I have not yet get my deeds, is that mean I even not the plotowner? If the company is going to close down, even I contact FSA. I still cannot get back my monies and deeds. So what's the point to info FSA?
36. PropertySCAM27/01/2007 09:38:40
You are right. You may possibly get nothing back. The point of informing the FSA however is to save others who might suffer the same fate as you.
37. Tinkerton03/02/2007 05:08:43
Was interested in the second company (Development Land Holdings) mentioned in Comment 12 of this Thread. Read the advice in Comment 13 of this thread and had a look on the internet. Found them at www.developmentlandholdings.com BUT the site was "under reconstruction" back in 2006 and it is February 2007 now...... nuff said?
38. Sarah08/02/2007 11:04:31
Dear Finchampstead Society and Property Scam,
I remember when [removed] first started and they are still the same slippery, devious, gold toothed nasties as before.
Only now it is glossed over with [removed] and the carefully concealed land sites on there website.
Nothing has changed from the phone call I had with an east end boy calling from [removed] who knew nothing about land and guaranteed planning permission to me and said the site would be out in 2 years.
Behind the gloss and calls for regulation are land sites that are in the middle of no where bought long before the glossy planning team ever came along.
They have out maneuvered the FSA by structuring the company to fall outside of the remit of the FSA.
[removed] have no planning experience, no development track record, nothing.
The FSA when stretching a collective investment to deal with some of the very bad elements in land banking industry seemed to completely fail to remember to call a property developer in order to find out what the necessary procedure is with planning or exits strategies in land.
Instead the new FSA guidelines give carte blanche to the unscrupulous.
According to the FSAs guidelines you can now continue to sell bad land in the middle of no where, sell it to mom and dad who you have just possibly given you their life savings, then you’re allowed to infer that planning could be achieved?
And leave the people..............???????????
I’m sorry but did I just miss something? How are these people going to get out of the land site and get there money out?
No one appears to understand how expensive, specialized and complex the reallocation of a land site is? It can run into the hundreds of thousands?
The FSA has just made it impossible for the best interests of investors to be achieved.
The implication of this in property development terms is that any company which applies proven development techniques, to promote a site for development and takes responsibility for the project by providing an exit for an investor, through a buy-back option, provides the cost for planning, gets the specialist planning procedure in place and buys good land will be hampered by the FSA, even though in reality day-to-day control of the land remains squarely with the investor.
While those who sell land with the ‘possibility’ of achieving planning permission in the future yet have no structure in place to attain these goals, are left to sell with impunity, and continue to prey on the naive.
Worst of all this ‘guidance’ by the FSA makes it impossible for a Developer to buy the site as the FSA are claiming the operator is not allowed to organize for a buy-back option, enabling a clean sale of the site to a developer – which is the purpose of an option.
In the blogs you can see worried investors run around being hounded by press and lawyers claiming to want to help them or worse "planning advisors."
Comments made about greenbelt, for god sake we are at urban capacity and most of us young can not afford a house because we never increased the release of land to meet the number of immigrants piling into beaten up England.
Greenbelt, Greenfield, heavy duty Industrial, Brownfield it’s needed the countries a miss managed mess.
I agree with CPRE I love an open countryside especially England’s but they have to build, why not push to create defined National Parks but to rant on about green belt when they have been building on only what they have to around the cities, towns and the odd sustainable village.
I want to be able to afford a house in this country.
39. PropertySCAM08/02/2007 20:46:16
"Worst of all this ‘guidance’ by the FSA makes it impossible for a Developer to buy the site as the FSA are claiming the operator is not allowed to organize for a buy-back option, enabling a clean sale of the site to a developer – which is the purpose of an option."
Sarah, the FSA guidance says nothing of the sort. It merely points out that operating a land investment scheme in the only way that could ever possibly work is a collective investment and would need to be authorised.
The big question is simply this.
Why aren't the "respectable" land banking companies simply falling over themselves to apply for and get that FSA authorisation?
It would make a compelling USP.
Trouble is, with FSA regulation, they'd have to be honest about the prospects for the investment and fewer investors would be interested (possibly very few indeed) when they were equipped with a balanced view of the risks.
40. john daynes13/02/2007 14:26:17
with reference to your last comment, am i correct in saying that if a land banking becomes regulated by the fsa to operate this cis then then can not advertise there product because guidelines state that cis can not be advertised so it gives the reputable land banking companies who want to be regulated a bigger hurdle
41. PropertySCAM13/02/2007 15:25:38
Guidelines say no such thing. A CIS can be advertised:
- by an authorised person
- by an unauthorised person, if approved by an authorised person
- by an unauthorised person, if exempt
42. Sarah Dean13/02/2007 19:13:25
Dear Property Scam,
Worst of all this ‘guidance’ by the FSA makes it impossible for a Developer to buy the site as the FSA are claiming the operator is not allowed to organize for a buy-back option, enabling a clean sale of the site to a developer – which is the purpose of an option." This is what they said.
Sarah, the FSA guidance says nothing of the sort. It merely points out that operating a land investment scheme in the only way that could ever possibly work is a collective investment and would need to be authorized. That is incorrect it is the exact way it has been working for the last 50 years in land assembly and it never needed authorization.
The big question is simply this: Why did no one bother to research how land sites are assembled?
Why aren't the "respectable" land banking companies simply falling over themselves to apply for and get that FSA authorisation? When I enquired about this with the FSA they told me that they have absolutely no intention of regulating land, they told me so directly 3 times.
I wish I shared your kind of faith in the establishment.
It would make a compelling USP. FSA regulation is certainly not the most unique selling point I could imagine. What about previous results? I have been approached by companies out there now claiming to be aligned with FSA guidance and using this as a key selling point. In reality they simply skirt the FSA by leaving the participants out in the cold.
Trouble is, with FSA regulation, they'd have to be honest about the prospects for the investment and fewer investors would be interested (possibly very few indeed) when they were equipped with a balanced view of the risks.
For some, but as I said the FSA have no intention of regulating land investment; so I doubt we’ll ever see that.
43. PropertySCAM13/02/2007 22:17:31
Sarah, what is your point? Are you arguing in favour of or against regulation? It seems to us that some form of regulation of land banking is necessary and, imperfect though it may well be, the sort of regulation being enforced by the FSA is the best we have at the moment.
44. mick14/02/2007 13:15:20
the problem i see developing is that the fsa investigations will end up tarring all land bankers with the same brush,causing all of them to go bust,
leaving all small investers out of pocket,so then only the fat cat investers can buy land,and get fatter.
i know i am bias as a small 2 plot invester,am i also paradoid.
45. Lewis14/02/2007 14:43:57
I bought two plots with Rubicon and was totally gutted to find the plots I paid £9500 to £12500 for are actually worth £200 I was quoted this figure by 3 individual estate agents so I obviously want compensating. I approached a company who say they can get me a refund by representing me in a case against them I am not going to give there details until I get some movement but hopefully they may be able to recuperate some of my investment so should be able to help every one. I will post the contact details as soon as I get somewhere. HOPEFULLY this could be our saviour!!!
46. mark14/02/2007 17:29:42
Lewis,
Compensation, yes, that is the idea first mentioned by the FSA, however the company is in Liquidation, do you really believe that their will be enough money in the pot to compensate investors?
47. John15/02/2007 10:24:08
Landbanking appears to be a very good idea and could produce high profits for both seller and buyer if its done properly, but the problems of the collective investment polocy appear to hinder its development into a respectable investment scheme.
So as far as the FSA is concerned
1. If you are irresponsible and sell plots with no exit strategy and no possibility of planning its OK
2. If you act responsibly and fund an exit strategy by organising planning its a collective investment.
3. A collective investment is illegal if not approved and regulated by the FSA
4. The FSA have no intention of regulating the sale of land.
Catch 22.
So its only irresponsible companies that can operate within the law. One has to question whether its actually the FSA that are being irresponsible.
John
48. Paul Smith15/02/2007 18:24:47
Homepage: http://www.whiskyscam.co.uk
Wise up John the only people making a profit out of landbanking are the people selling the plots. If the fields had the remotest possibility of planning consent then why split them into plots. It's only fields that have little or no chance of getting planning consent that get split up. Landbankers are not philanthropists they are just after a quick buck at your expense. Now some investors tell me they have made a profit by selling the plot back to the landbankers. This is known as churning - the land is still only worth a couple of hundred pounds but having made a "profit" the landbankers will now try and sell you more plots and intice you to invest more heavily. The same people who were involved in the ostrich scam, the whisky scam, the wine scam, the art scam and pyramid selling are now "expert" at sourcing land for development - landbankers.
49. John 16/02/2007 09:41:06
OK Paul, I agree with a lot what you say.
You split sites into plots because a small invester cannot afford to buy the whole site, unless of course he found his own piece of potential development land and paid agricultural price, but he is not a developer. A House Builder does not want to make such a long term investment. He makes his money out of building houses, not investing in land. However, House Builders have paid for options on thousands of greenfield sites around the country. I suppose Tesco may disprove this theory, but thats a different story.
Landbanking is not new. I am told its how Las Vegas got built and thats a pretty remote site. OK, nobody should be investing in isolated moorland, but if its agricultural land adjacent to existing development and strategically situated, it probably will get built on as urban development increases. Not all landbanking sites are remote fields.
(Maybe the best long term investment in land is open moorland on high ground, because when the effects of global warming really take effect and there is only the post office tower sticking out of the water, all eyes will turn to Scotland)
Yes, its a big risk, but it could be a big reward if it comes off, but its not likely to come off until responsible companies emerge who can operate a scheme within the law.
I am also not so sure that you can compare landbanking with other scams, as you do actually get something. Its a piece of land and will always be there.
Anyway - must go now, the Ostrich needs feeding.
50. Mr. A. Newton16/02/2007 12:39:37
I think the last comment is very relevant. Like any 'potential' investment, the buyer needs to choose on the basis of likely return. A field with other fields around it will surely remain as such whilst a field with existing housing on two sides holds much more potential. I think potential purchasers should look at the actual piece of land and not at the sales pitch. Land has historically proved a good bet but the old phrase 'location, location, location' is the key.
51. Rich S19/02/2007 13:20:51
What is happening with Property Bye sorry Spy cant get any real answers and am convinced FSA or DTI involved. My Sister invested £25k and want to know what we can do to find out. Am being told they are restrategising there marketing but when i asked if FSA or DTI involved they would not say yes or no. Does anyone out there know and if so what is the reason for them closing? what does it mean for my sister's investment?
52. smithy19/02/2007 13:46:03
Property Spy have 'temporarily' ceased trading - thats from the horses mouth. Theyve let a lot of people go from the company. However, Vantage Land run by Andrew Beckingham - the same MD of Property Spy - is still up and running in the same building as PS- Chaucer House in St Albans . I hope to find out more info for you by the end of the week. First Strata is also run by the same man - A Beckingham. Might be worth contacting this company in Fleet Street.
53. smithy19/02/2007 13:50:21
if your sister paid 25k to purchase a plot of land. She owns the land. There is a 3% resell fee - that if she sells the land then PS get 3% of the asking price but I would have thought that if the paperwork has all gone through - then she keeps her plot of land.
54. smithy19/02/2007 13:52:03
I can now confirm FSA are investigating Prop Spy.
55. Rich S19/02/2007 15:03:47
Hello Smithy Thanks for that! Why would the FSA become involved? what does that mean for the investment? I have heard and read horror stories that when the FSA gets involved and close companies the plots plumet in value as basically the plots are not what they are being sold as initially. Where can i find out why the FSA shut them down any links you can suggest as you seem to have a good handle on things?
Thanks Again!!
56. comment posted by [removed]19/02/2007 15:17:05
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
57. Rich S19/02/2007 15:44:58
Thanks again Smithy. You have your finger on the pulse for sure! Thank goddness for sites like this otherwise i would not have had a clue where to go. On your travels i dont suppose you found out what reason they were shut down? I will call the companies you listed and see how i do but to date other then you Smithy alot of guarded responses and no comments seem to be hitting me including from the DTI and FSA!!!! Can i ask are you "in the know" as you seem to have realised alot of info very quickly. Appreciate you probably cant say too much but i have a albeit probably misguided hope that some people out there have a conscience and if they know info would like to sghare it. Thanks again and good Karma to you.
58. smithy19/02/2007 15:56:07
Hi Rich, lets just say I have inside knowledge. So I promise you its correct. At the moment PS say they have temporarily ceased trading. However they are still selling land - lookat their website vantageland.com, First Strata and Hartwell & Co. All run by the same owner - A.Beckingham. All I know is that the FSA have an ongoing investigation thats not finished. So everthing is just on hold - its not closed just yet. There is nothing public yet because the investigation is running right now. I dont know why they are being investigated as yet. Dont be fobbed off by vantis. You could always go to Prop Spy offices in St Albans. you wont be able to speak to A.Beckingham as he is field based - but someone else senior - a manager or the Financial Controller - may be able to assist you. If I get any more news - might do - early next week I will let you know
59. PropertySCAM19/02/2007 16:14:43
Ref comment 56 "A number of people who bought plots of land from prop spy - sell the plot on after about 8 to 9 months - they make a profit of at least 2/3k"
We have certainly seen reports to this effect but these have invariably been from an interested party and have not been independently corroborated.
It makes good press for a land banker to say that investors have made profits on reselling land plots after a comparatively short period of ownership but ask yourself this: Who would buy such a plot, second hand and at a premium, when there are plots available new on the same site or a similar one at the original price?
In fact sometimes the prices of plots are reduced where a land banker is having difficulty selling a whole site. We have seen buy one, get one free and buy two, get third free offers. If you'd bought a plot for full price at one of these sites, what chance would you have of realising any gain on reselling?
Also, if plot buyers have made these short term gains on "reselling" their plots, have they perchance then gone on to buy more plots? From the same land banker?
60. smithy19/02/2007 16:26:45
Hi there Propscam
Totally agree with you PropScam... What has happened is that someone purchases a plot for a certain amount from Prop Spy. Then sells it a few months later in the main its always been because since buying the plot theyve seeked legal advice - too late - and decided they want nothing further to do with Prop Spy. Prop Spy sells theplot for them as a resell. Stupid and daft I know. But unfortunately some people have done this. This was a while back though - PS have advertised buy one get one free - when business took a dive. I remember the days when they sold plots from 18k - now you could pick up a plot for as little as 6k. Its rare but its happened. I know not the reasons why but can only report whats happened in the past.
61. Rich S19/02/2007 16:54:19
Hi Smithy
I cant find this Hartwell and Co anywhere. Lots of Property Management Companies called hartwell but not sure which one it is. Do you have an address or a contact that i should ask for at all? I have spoken to the FSA and they say that they can not confirm if they are carrying out an investigation and the same with the DTI. what ever happened to freedom of information!!
62. charles19/02/2007 17:53:54
I am very glad I found this site. I received a mail shot from my broker and he is promoting Development Land Holdings. I was looking to invest about £25000 through my pension. I am a very cautious investor and put land banking into search engine and ended up here. Very interested in thread number 12. Has George any updates and did he invest.
63. Will Smith19/02/2007 18:15:55
Hartwell & Co is here:
http://www.hartwellbond.com/
64. GS19/02/2007 19:02:10
Another one of these scam companies is Nationwide Land Estates they can be found at the very basic website
www.nationwide-land-estates.co.uk
57 - 59 The Brunel Centre, Bletchley, Milton Keynes. MK2 2ES
Tel: 0800 970 9417
Fax: 01908 275095
Email: enquiries@nationwide-land-estates.co.uk
They are operating a colective investmet scheme selling plots of land in Northamptonshire. they are saying it is part of a larger development and have photographs of ground work,which they say is the commencement of development.
It is where cables are being laid - complete lies.
The FSA and DTI are being notified of their practices and they should be off the radar soon. Anyone who has purchased land from them should contact this site now and also the FSA and look to get full refunds.
65. GS19/02/2007 19:25:42
Nationwide land estates are here:
http://nationwide-land-estates.co.uk
66. Phil - eco warrior20/02/2007 14:18:57
Some have sharpened up. Others are still trying to pull a fast one... LOOK...
Who cares about the FSA and collective investments (bloody good job if you ask me) ?
The fact still remains that investros are getting well and trully conned through paying over the top - well OVER the TOP - inflated prices for a poxy land plot that will hardly get planning permission in the first place.
Go nextdoor to this poxy land and if you're lucky the land owner might sell it to you at the fraction of the price then those piratical "landbank" firms !
67. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 00:22:15
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
68. comment posted by [removed]23/02/2007 08:41:39
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
69. Andy Bould23/02/2007 15:11:27
I believe I have fallen foul of this "scam" via Townfield Land Investments, a Townfield Development Company. I was persuaded to sign up and, at first, all looked good. It was only when I tried to contact several people in the "Company" that I realised that there could be a problem.
Are these companies being investigated by the FSA?
70. Ian27/02/2007 08:51:04
Does anyone have any experiece of dealings with Countrywide Land Holdings Limited? Are they FSA registered? How can I find out?
71. PropertySCAM27/02/2007 09:25:15
No land banking company is currently FSA registered.
72. Liliane Clement02/03/2007 13:12:14
I bought some plots at Burpham in Guildford two years ago. Since then UK& International Land Sales and Development Ltd seem to have disappeared off the web. Comment No 16 was someone trying to contact others who have bought there. Does anybody have any further information?
73. Liz05/03/2007 12:20:06
My name is Liz. I am a researcher for a BBC programme. We are looking to talk to people who have had ANY experience of Landbanking, who live in Sussex or Kent. I am particularly interested in talking to anybody who bought land in Aylesford, with Rubicon Estates. If you are interested in talking to me please contact me at lizhazell@hotmail.com asap!
74. Another bloke called Jim05/03/2007 19:51:17
I bought a plot of and at Abbey View in Newport Pagnell - marketed by Sinclair Deville. Prior to this I'd done a little property investing and I used my complete net profits to fund the purchase. I actually got their details from a reputable proerty investment compay - namely Hattan and Grand. I (foolishly) believed that ifthey were marketing it then it must be legitimate.
I spoketo the directors of Sinclair Devillewho assured me that planning consents would be applied for in 2005. This then became 2007 and then 2011. They still insist that the land will gain permissions but I'm resigned to having lost £20,000 with little or no chance of seeing it again.
At least I have the deeds and I have a very exclusive, very small camp site.
75. Anon08/03/2007 17:51:39
About 6/7 months ago I purchased some land from a company called Countrywideland Holdings Ltd and very recently I managed to get a full refund from them.
After reading all the posts and articles on this site I was worried that I too was duped into buying into an unauthorised collective investment scheme so decided to confront the company and after a very unsatisfactory answer from their broker I demanded my money back. Although they initially refused to do that, after a few choice words including legal action, FSA, DTI, OFT and Watchdog, they soon changed their minds.
I must point out that although I had paid for the land in full 6/7 months ago, I did not sign any of the TP1 forms and they are still sitting in my drawers at home. I'm not sure how much leverage this gave me but if they are running an unauthorised CIS, you are entitled your money back regardless.
For anyone who may have invested in this company and is concerned, they may want to try the same action before they too are investigated and forced into liquidation leaving all investors with nothing more than a patch of grass.
Good luck.
76. Rachel14/03/2007 12:52:38
Hi Michael,
I know a bit about UPA - I have a site in Burpham. Let me know if you'd like to talk. It would be good to get all plot owners together on this one.
Thanks,
Rachel
77. comment posted by [removed]15/03/2007 01:41:50
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
78. Phil - the eco warrior15/03/2007 11:48:51
azim saleem,
Take a good long hard read on the topics debated in this site. You might get a feel for the "market".
79. SK20/03/2007 13:54:15
I purchased a plot in Maldon, Essex from PropertySpy in May 2004 for 10,800 pounds. I paid the 500 pounds deposit by credit card and the remaining amount through BACS payment to Kidd Rapinet. From reading the comments on Propertyscam, I feel that I have lost most of my money along with many other people who have purchased plots from PropertySpy and other Landbanking companies. Could you forward me details on who to speak to in order to claim any compensation, etc.?
80. Andy22/03/2007 09:28:19
I purchased land from Rubicon last year with my pension money for £40,000 in Kent and Newark,having been recomended by an independant FSA.I also went through Kidd Rapinett Solicitors.Can anyone tell me if there is any possibility of a potential claim against the Solicitors,or if there is any other routes for me to take to get any of my money back.
81. Ning22/03/2007 10:29:51
I have talk to the sale agent of UK Land ,they denie they are CIS, they said they are the only company have clearence from FSA &is going to get FSA approval ,please advice.
82. Benjamin26/03/2007 20:44:12
I just attended a Land International Ltd presentation on their plots of land for sale at Wootton Bassett, Swindon. In the presentation, the company claims to be legitimate with an Office of Fair Trading Licence. It was right near impossible to get a straight answer on how that piece of land was currently zoned as. And the usual proclamation of "engaging land development professionals to push through change of designation" was done. Sure, this is illegal in England now, But this is happening in Singapore!!! I was almost conned. But I came to my senses, did the research, and now am DEFINITELY NOT going to throw away good money. A word of advice to all: IF IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT IS !!(TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE)
83. Pauline29/03/2007 21:09:20
I bought a plot at Burpham from ILSAD but since their planning application failed the website has disappeared and nothing is ever heard from them. Where does this leave the plot owners?
84. Will Smith29/03/2007 22:08:27
Ref: 83
Who is ILSAD?
85. Simon30/03/2007 16:12:29
ILSAD is or was a company called International Land Sales and Development or something like that it was based in guildford surrey with its sister company UPA United Plotowners Assoaciation. But both websites have not gone the offices have gone they are not listed anywhere and there seems to be no trace of either company
86. Simon30/03/2007 16:14:00
ILSAD is or was a company called International Land Sales and Development or something like that it was based in guildford surrey with its sister company UPA United Plotowners Assoaciation. But both websites have gone the offices have gone they are not listed anywhere and there seems to be no trace of either company
87. Richard30/03/2007 20:53:25
Can anyone tell me whether they have any news about Property Spy? 2 weeks now since we were told they will be up and running again but they are not. Reading the comments about the land banking places being shut down is really scary and I would like to do something before they get shut down.
Surely we cannot leave this lying down...
88. stephen jones31/03/2007 20:03:28
i purchased land in pilgrims vale with rubicon and southwold with townfield land investments total 50k fsa currently in talks with townfield any info would be appreciated
89. Mr Blobby04/04/2007 23:48:29
http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=275490&NewsAreaID=2
90. comment posted by [removed]05/04/2007 00:04:14
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
91. Phil06/04/2007 15:53:17
With regard to Townfield Land Investments, the DTI have started to wind up the company. The case reaches the High Court on 20 June 2007.
92. Dr Saad Ibrahim11/04/2007 15:24:41
Hi I have bought a land from property spy 2004 for investment, and I have the land registry documentions for it. Is there any problem here. thanks
93. presidente12/04/2007 11:04:10
Does anyone know anything more about 'Land International' - i picked up a brochure of theirs at the Property show , excel in march07. Any good or bad news about them ?
Can anyone recommend a valid and hones land banking company ?
94. PropertySCAM12/04/2007 11:51:19
Ref comment 93 - Land International's home page currently says "Approved by the Office of Fair Trading No. 568754". A copy of this page has been saved for reference in case it is later altered.
1. The OFT does not approve individual firms, only trade bodies.
2. No land banking trade body is recognised by the OFT.
Thus the statement "Approved by the Office of Fair Trading No. 568754" is utterly false.
You should draw your own conclusions from that.
95. adam13/04/2007 08:09:25
I've invested a plot of land through a Land-Banking Company. The company is registered outside UK. Based on all the comments and understanding, it is a CIS. The company is not authorised by FSA. Is this legit?
96. PropertySCAM13/04/2007 12:31:05
Depends what you mean by "legit".
Is a law being broken? Possibly not.
Will your investment pay off? Probably not.
97. Dan Smith15/04/2007 14:51:23
I have been contacted by Rutherford Ross. They say they are based in holland but when I checked the phone it would appear they called from Hounslow? When I asked they said they had a sales office in richmond and Hounslow. They have five land site one of which is Whiley Green which I Know. I think the pope as more chance of becoming Jewish than Whiley Green getting planning permission. If they have sales offices in richmond and Hounslow they should be regulated: Can you get the DTI and FSA to check them out
Dan
98. comment posted by [removed]18/04/2007 09:18:38
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
99. andy18/04/2007 15:04:08
hi all,
i would be v interested to talk to ANYONE who has invested with either UPA or ILSAD as i have
please contact me on andymuir75@hotmail.com
cheers
100. Richard Nazaroo18/04/2007 15:24:20
Rutherford Ross is actually run by two guys by the names of Sohan Brar and Lewis Daulby. Lewis Daulby was sentenced in 2001 to five years imprisonment for fraud. Sohan Brar is behind a number of wine scam companies, selling worthless plonk for thousands of pounds and misrepresenting the wine as vintage investment wine. The names of those companies are Millenium Spirit Investments and Vintage Wines Ltd. See http://www.investdrinks.org/directory.htm His tactic is to appoint people in India to act as directors so as to hide his involvement. These hapless victims are paid a couple of hundred pounds for their trouble. How do I know? Well, I was a fool who puchased wine from them a few years ago before they disappeared. Since then I have tracked them down to the UK where their sales operation is. They don't sell to UK residents for fear of prosecution from UK authorities. Mr Brar esq lives in Richmond where he owns a £13 million pound property purchased from the proceeds of his other ventures. they probably know as much about land investment as they do particle physics!!! Stay clear of them!!!
101. iny19/04/2007 17:31:49
I have been approached by The property Partnership to buy some land for £15000. Should I be wary of this.
102. Phil - the eco warrior20/04/2007 00:39:14
Plot owners who want to build a list of other plot holders for whatever collective action ought to check out the landregistry
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/
More specifically
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/property_info/
The task of collecting info on other title holders of land plots registered becomes easy this way.
Just my 5 cents.. I noticed attempts made on the propertyscam google group which is another way but not as fast.
Good luck.
103. adam20/04/2007 04:09:55
If someone can help on this question!
I would like to find out if a company is registered outside UK and claims that he do not require authorization by FSA, will there be any problem in selling the project to a developer with the planning permit is approved?
104. dkl20/04/2007 07:39:16
Just attended a talk from Land International in Singapore. They were promoting a plot of land in Swindon. Promises looked good - profits of 5-7 times over in 4-7years? How true is this? They even prided themselves for registering with the Office of Fair Trading (OFT License No 568754).
I'll probably call up OFT to verify their status...
105. comment posted by [removed]20/04/2007 08:30:58
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
106. PropertySCAM20/04/2007 08:43:44
To comment 103 - being registered outside the UK is no protection for the company selling the plots. If they sell to UK residents, FSA protection still applies. Neither has any bearing on the likelihood of the site being sold to a developer. Read this to understand why.
http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsAlerts1.php?id=65
To comment 104 - read comment 94 on this page.
107. reservoirduck20/04/2007 11:52:53
This site is great I had a phone call from LAND BANKING (UK) PLC their webiste is http://www.investorsinland.com/. As I was on the phone being pitched the sales speel, I had a browser open and came across your site. So I asked about FSA investigation and they said that they were ok. After reading the comments here I really doubt that.
I was given details of their solicitor - Are these solicitors acting in good faith? should they be reported to the law society? as it all sounds dubious.
Has anyone had dealings with LAND BANKING (UK) PLC ? What they said to me sounded like a Collective Investment and though I was initially taken in by the professional looking website I'm now inclined to avoid them does anyone else have any views?.
Also they tried to make out as being legit because they are a PLC does this have any swing?
Cheers
D
108. comment posted by [removed]21/04/2007 10:01:50
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
109. gupa21/04/2007 12:34:16
I purchased land from Rotherford Ross at Golden Meddows in Kent. I was told it was a Dutch company but it appears the company is run in Richmond. I have not yet received any certificates for over a year as I refuses to sign there terms and conditions. As my money is pooled with other funds held by the company does this not make it as a collective investment?
As they are operating in this country in Richmond, with there lawyers issuing the land certsi should they not be contacted by the DTI and ask them to registrare their company at companies house and should they also comply with sfa regulations about the pooling of clients funds as being seen as a collective investment. My understanding that to run an unregulated collective investment is a criminal matter as well as a regualtatory matter
110. Richard23/04/2007 22:27:56
I invested £10,000 at Pligims Vale Kent through Rubicon estates. Looks like I have been scammed. Any way of getting any money back? Please help.
111. dkl25/04/2007 08:32:15
Re comments 94 and 104, I've called up OFT to verify the autencity of Land International PLC's registration with them. Apparently, it DOES seem legitimate, and the registration / license number furnished by the company is true.
I wonder what this means, though.
I spoke to a representative from FSA, and was advised that the OFT license was probably a "consumer credit" license, and is by no means an assurance that the company is operating "legitimately" with regards to land banking.
FSA advised that most existing land banking activities fall under a "collective investment scheme", and as such mut be regulated by the FSA. Presently, FSA is studying the land banking industry as a whole, and could not give me more information until they've come up with their set of guidelines / rules, etc.
112. S Ibrahim26/04/2007 16:55:57
I am interested to talk to anyone who own plot in shilington . cheerss
113. Dario27/04/2007 11:32:45
Regarding message 91 from Phil .When was "Town Field" Libertas land first brought under the scrutiny of the FSA? Does anybody know? And do the same laws apply, where by assests and bank accounts of these corrupt individuals are frozen? If and when they are found guilty of fraud. And who would I contact, if I had valuble information regarding these individuals?
114. comment posted by [removed]28/04/2007 02:42:30
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
115. The Finchampstead Society28/04/2007 08:16:40
IMPORTANT ADVICE TO ANYONE CHECKING UK Land International (UKLI)
Go to www.creditgate.com
Enter UKLI company number 04656772
Order copy of Auditor's Resignation dated 11 January 2007 for £6.95
Please note copyright prevents us from revealing the contents of this document here but strongly recommend anyone who has bought or is about to buy a plot from UKLI to do this.
116. Will Smith28/04/2007 19:45:30
Ref: 115
I'm sure you can decribe in your own words what is in the report?
Just don't quote.
117. tom29/04/2007 06:23:56
regarding item no. 115, I cant find the said Auditor's Resignation dated 11 January 2007 for £6.95 , can you advice where to obtain, i can see other reports but not this one that you mention, I have purchased one plot of land but yet to sign the document, so please help to let me know what happen if you can, thank a lot
118. The Finchampstead Society29/04/2007 13:46:55
Re 116/117 Sorry in posting 115 ther is a typo for "international" read "investments". The company referred to is UK Land Investments also known as UKLI. Please note the auditor's resignation letter can be obtained through www.creditgatecom for £6.95 if you follow my instructions.
The auditor gives a report on why he resigned and I suspect anybody reading this would become very alarmed and concerned if they had bought plots from UKLI.
I do not think Companies House offers this document for sale on their "Webcheck" service. I suggest you would need to telephone them to find out if you could purchase a copy from them.
119. The Finchampstead Society29/04/2007 14:17:59
Re 115 t0 118 inclusive: I think you can only apply for the document in question on line through www.creditgate.com when they are linked to Companies House and this service is only available Mon-Sat 07.00 to 12.00 midnight.
120. Will Smith30/04/2007 16:00:41
OK... I'M AMAZED!
Why cause PropertySpy have sold some 4000-6000 plots of land in about 5 years and no one brings them up.
If you are to believe what has been written about them on here [and no reason why not], they are very bad boys.
121. J.P01/05/2007 10:55:58
You're not the only one wondering why all references to property spy and kidd rapinet have gone AWOL.
1 plot at st helens through them. great.
122. Adrien01/05/2007 17:57:48
I bought two plots from Property Spy in 2003 One for 22K and the other for 28K. I paid a small deposit by Credit card and on the statement it read:
"Property Market Limited St Albans, Stereo and Sound Equipment" I guess I should have known better. Is there nothing "we" can do?
123. tom02/05/2007 16:27:33
ref :119
I still cant get the document, I dont know what happen, is it possible you send to me by email ?
124. Peter03/05/2007 16:01:47
I am interested in buying plots of land in the UK. Any recommendation for a Land Banking Company in the UK ?
125. PropertySCAM03/05/2007 17:22:08
Peter, we are simply baffled by your desire to buy land plots in the UK. Are you under the impression that they are a good investment? Please read these:
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/fivemyths.htm
http://www.jenman.com.au/NewsAlerts1.php?id=65
126. Soyab Husein04/05/2007 22:55:56
I purchased plots thru Townfield in Southwold and they are under investigation by FSA/DTI with a court date in June. I have NOT received my Title Deed from the HM Land Registry. I recently contacted the sellers solicitor and they informed me that they have sent the forms to the DTI who are going to complete the matter at HMLR in terms of the registration. I'm not very familiar with the laws of conveyancing but does this imply that the monies have been exchanged and the land can now only be registered in my name and cannot be sold to multiple parties. Has anyone experienced this with Townfield or any other company? Anyone know how long does this registration process with the DTI take? Any useful info and advice will really be appreciated. Thanks.
127. Soyab Husein10/05/2007 16:31:56
Townfield's contact at the DTI are : [removed]
(Sorry - you can't post third parties' email addresses and telephone numbers here without clear consent from them.)
128. Rongkai Xu12/05/2007 23:34:03
Dear All,
I purchased two plots. One from Townfield at Southwold and have the title deeds now. The other one is from Glebe Estates and have no deeds so far. I read the threads and worried so much about my hard-earned money.
1. I want to claim against Glebe Esates now, what shall I do? Shall I call FSA or claim through court for more information?
2. Regarding the purchased plot in Southwold, what would happen if Townfield went liquidation?
Any comments are welcome, please send email to me rkxu3@yahoo.com.
129. comment posted by [removed]13/05/2007 05:40:42
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
130. comment posted by [removed]14/05/2007 11:44:48
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
131. Black Knight15/05/2007 12:01:47
Hi,
I have been approached by a few landbankers but have not made any commitment. On recommendation by some friends I have been a frequent visitor to your site and have been following the discussions here with fascination.
For general information, there is also another company called Land International which is very active here in Malaysia. I did some checking and found a few interesting things about them.
1. They claim they are “Licensed by the Office of Fair Trading No. 568754” which are very misleading. What is licenced?
2. Offering the land on interest-free instalment- does that mean the legal ownership resides with them until final payment? What happens if they close down?
3. They claims over 20 years experience in the industry. Well, I check at Companies House. The company was incorporated on 02-12-2003!! Furthermore the nature of business stated was “7487 - Other business activities” and no accounts have been filed.
4. Best of all, after studying their brouchure, it is quite clear that they are running a CIS, which is illegal in UK.
I have seen the same sales people at differ