PropertySCAM is growing (continued)Do please note that we reserve the right to edit or delete comments that do not contribute positively to the debate on how to stop land banking.
Please note that this is a continuation of the lengthy discussion started in an earlier post with a similar title. New visitors may wish to acquaint themselves with the contents of that post before contributing comments here.
1. Cycloneman20/12/2006 15:59:15
I think that someone should look up the definition of of libel, according to my dictionary it is "False and malicious published statement(s) that causes damage to a person(s) reputation.
All I am doing is to direct readers to the website
www.internationallandbanking.com
Whereby they can see a video in which.
This individual introduces themselves by name.
Tells you all the benefits of Land Banking.
Tells you what a good company The English Land Partnership are.
Goes to one of their sites "Scholls Meadow"
Shows it being split into individual plots.
Talks to a representative of The English Land Partnership.
Tells you that if you make an investment then you could get a !0 fold return.
Suggests that you should contact the English Land Partnership NOW!
At this point my case rests. I think that the individual involved does not need any help from me to damage their reputation.
2. Trevor21/12/2006 01:29:31
Cycloneman, your post No. 80 contains FIVE potentially libelous statements.
They are no less potentially libelous by virtue of the fact that YOU believe them to be true.
That what was said was true is a complete defence to an action for libel.
But the onus of proof is with the individual making the statements or the publisher of them.
Some of your comments are clearly based on personal opinion and personal assessment, not facts, which leaves you and the publisher exposed to a libel action.
It's quite simple really. Before you accuse anyone of anything, you must ask yourself whether you could prove the truth of your claims to the satisfaction of a Court. And you couldn't.
3. Christopher Paul John10/01/2007 13:52:12
I made a request for further information on a website about land investments and was contacted by London Land & Property Exchange Ltd who are acting on behalf of Portman Land Investments who in turn have stated that they have an option on the land purchased in Harpendon. The "Senior Land Advisor" said on the phone that for a 1000sq.ft plot it would cost £10,000 with a potential value of the land acquired of £1.7million giving a return of £43,560 for my initial investment. I have been cautious although in principal it sounds feasible and haven't committed my self to anything. Following access to this site I have now e-mailed the "Senior Land Advisor" the article on BBC news telling him that I'm not interested. He was due to phone me back tomorrow night to close the deal, phew! Has anyone had any dealings with London Land and Property Exchange Ltd?
4. Phil13/01/2007 00:54:45
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6XCDHL
5. Paul Smith17/01/2007 09:31:55
Homepage: http://www.whiskyscam.co.uk
I would be interested to hear from anyone who considers that they have been induced to buy plots of land from land banking companies by false and misleading statements made by sales persons at point of sale and paid a deposit by credit card. This may give investors a means of recouping their investment from the credit card supplier.
6. mike k17/01/2007 18:47:46
Re, Paul Smith, hi, yes i was cond that way, would be gtateful for any info on getting a refund from credit card company, cheers
7. roy18/01/2007 10:14:49
i am waiting for a pack from countrywide land holdings for a plot in londons east end, they are using the Olympics 2012 as the marketing ploy!! having come across your site by chance, and once i have read the pack it WILL GO IN THE BIN! thanks 
8. roy18/01/2007 11:13:54
have recieved pack. the plot is actually in ELY!!!!!! conmen!
9. Phil19/01/2007 10:21:03
Landbanking, Land Acquisitions or Land Investments - whatever these sharp telesales firms wish to call small plot landbank investments - is awash with conmen, criminal networks, dodgy lawyers and finance firms.
If you receive a call from these firms rather than bin your brochures first contact the FSA and report them. If FSA asks to see the brochure send it to the FSA.
"There is also a UK hotline number for you to call to report any land banking scheme which you believe may be an unauthorised collective investment - 0845 606 1234.
If calling from outside the UK, call +44 20 7066 1000 (FSA main switchboard)."
10. roy20/01/2007 12:44:12
got follow up call to ask where the returned form and money were. when told they would not be forthcoming, yor super slick salesman started to swear at me after finding out i had been on this site. very satisfying conclusion to what could have been an expensive mistake on my part!
11. Francis24/01/2007 02:50:57
I`m from Malaysia and just want to inform you that the scale of which this landbanking companies from UK are trying the sell this scheme overseas is tremendous and getting overboard .
Apparently they are targeting countries in south east asia (specially malaysia ,singapore and brunei) where investors tend to fall too easily to ploys like this.
They are agressively advertising on the media (specially national TV) and sending flyers all around .They conduct daily seminars at their premises and many people have fallen bought into this program.
I can specificly provide details of these companies if needed.
I beleive someone has to stop this scam.
Thank -you
12. Cycloneman24/01/2007 15:08:35
Portman Land Investments Ltd - Portman.uk.net
Subsequent to my earlier postings on this site and other investigations that I have carried out I was invited to the offices of the “London Land and Property Exchange Limited” for a discussion. The conclusions I came to as a result of this meeting were
The “London Land & Property Exchange Limited” have no operational connection with “The English Land Partnership”.
The “London Land and Property Exchange Limited” are operating on an ethical basis.
The “London Land & Property Exchange Limited” have a business relationship with “Portman Land Investments Ltd”.
“Portman Land Investments Ltd” have never had any association with “The English Land Partnership” at any time.
13. john26/01/2007 11:39:39
I am from Singapore and have recently made a land purchase with the title deed issued by the H. M. Land Registry. How secure is this title deed and in the event of the Land Company closing down, what can I do with this title deed.
14. PropertySCAM26/01/2007 16:23:19
Assuming the title deed is genuine, then it is 100% secure. You do own a plot of land somewhere and this ownership is not conditional upon the continuation of the business which sold you the plot.
What you can do with it is, however, moot.
You may have difficulty selling, so will have little choice but to keep it and hope that the plot will be worth something to someone some day.
15. Brian27/01/2007 14:06:09
Homepage: http://Reply to Paul Smith Comment No 5.
I have recently paid deposit on a plot of land in Cuffley through a company called Glebe Estates.It certainly appears to be a collective investment scheme. After reading the info on this site and having my solicitor review the contract documentation they have sent me (which tells a completly different story to the sale pitch!!) I am currently requesting my deposit back. Interestingly enough the contract doecuments were drawn up by a solisitors called 'KIDD RAPINET' who someone mentioned on this site also act as solisitor for 'RUBICON' Estates. any assistance you may be able to offer / or info on this company would be appreciated. Cheers
16. GS27/01/2007 17:38:12
I was persuaded to pay a deposit for a plot of land in Kent by the promise that if I was not entirely satisfied or found that they had mislead me in any way I would recieve a refund. The next day I found your site and rang the company to request my deposit back. At this point they told me they could only do this if they had lied about owning the land. I have not at any time signed anything and have not heard from the company since. Is there any chance of getting my deposit back or anything I should be doing.
17. PropertySCAM27/01/2007 18:01:02
GS - sadly there's no straightforward answer.
We note that the promise made to you was that if you were not satisfied OR had been misled. While the latter may be open to question, the former is not and so you should get your refund if they are true to their word.
Real estate transactions are not subject to any kind of statutory cooling off period however and they are not obliged to refund.
If the deposit is relatively small, you might consider letting the matter rest. At least you didn't buy the plot.
If it is a significant sum, then you may want to seek professional legal advice. Is their scheme an unauthorised collective investment? If so, then you do have a right to a refund plus compensation for consequent losses.
18. Phil01/02/2007 17:20:03
Warning WARNING Warning...
Just as Rubicon gets shut down by the FSA another landbank firm sprouts. I recently received a telesales call from someone representing a business called "Berkerley Land Holdings". They were trying to sell me some land in the Thames Gateway which is owned by the Dartford Gun Club. Part of the sales spill was a new Olympic Gun Stadium costing around £40-50 million for the 2012 Olympics. On further research I discovered that this Olympic Stadium is going to be built around Stratford.
The spill went on with some rather aggressive and highly pressurised sales tactics. Loads of questions and loads of commands trying to get me to part with my money.
I did question the telesales chap, on the end of the phone, asking him where his firm was based to which I got evasive answers. I pointed out that I don't believe they are operating legally. Especially since they are managing the planning application stages - if thats not collective what is.. lol
Here's the punch line... this telesales chap tells me that investors start from £50,000 to £2 million. The telefool wanted me to give an answer as to how much I was prepared to invest. To which I gave a high figure. I could sense the excitement to this high figure. The next question was I'm I the decision maker. "Just so we don't waste each others time, blah, blah" Now I said yes.
I'm waiting for the brochure to pass it on to the FSA - which I fully plan to do with pleasure.
Can you just imagine the cheek. £50,000 for 1/10th of an acre of Marsh land next to a sewage works to boot in the Thames Gateway. I checked out the Dartford Gun Club website
http://www.dartfordcsc.com/
I have not questioned them yet to find out if they even know of a Berkeley Land Holdings.... perhaps someone else can...!!!
What I want to know is why is it that I'm getting called by landbank firms? Are there lists going round sold on the open propertyscam market place??
More info when available... on this one...
19. Phil - the eco warrior02/02/2007 16:15:03
Roll up ! Roll up ! Roll up !
Forever vigilant...
Whilst doing some due diligence on "Grosvenor Land Brokerage" (GLB) I discovered they are based in Greenwich Market, London not a stones throw away from FSA HQ in Canary Wharf.
Even more fascinating is another landbanking firm called "Berkeley Land Holdings" (BLH) - I mentioned these ones above because they struck me to be right aggressive on the phone.
Both BLH & GLB share virtually identical addresses. Are they linked?
Here's the address and contact details of GLB. Taken from their website (http://www.grosvenorland.co.uk/):
37 - 38 Greenwich Market,
Greenwich,
London, SE10 9HZ
+44 (0) 800 458 3404
Now... BLH address is:
40 - 42 Greenwich Market
Greenwich,
London, SE10 9HZ
Don't let the numbers fool you they are not in two separate office buildings they are in the same office block.
This would indicate that either two landbanking firms operate side by side or they are the same outfit. I actually went out of my way to visit GLB's address and hence how I discovered the location of BLH. Pure coincidence but what a gem of a find.
The office itself don't look really impressive - off some alley way leading into Greenwich Market - you wouldn't even know its an office if it wasn't cos of the address. You get a lot of movements in and out round launch time with men dressed in suits puffing away. I suspect these were the actual salesmen selling land.
Anyone care to comment??
Makes you laugh. Here are two landbanking firms operating right under the FSA's noses. haha
If anyone wants to pass this info to the FSA feel free. I'll see if I can find out more on other Landbank firms and post details here.
20. Phil - the eco warrior02/02/2007 16:37:00
Anyone been contacted by a Landbank firm called the London Land & Property Exchange (LLPX)??
Here's the website details:
http://www.llpx.org/index.php
What's really interesting about these folks is that they seem to be involved in Property Exchange as well as landbanks. This can be gathered from looking at their website. I find this a fascinating fact.
Has anyone actually exchanged a property with them?? What's more noticeable is that big square in the bottom right hand corner directing you to click for landbanks. Click on it and you get:
http://www.llpx.org/site/
Some posters on here have been quick to make links with ELP. Some have even said that ELP partners run LLPX.
What's really curious is no address on any of those sites as to where LLPX are based? A quick web search reveals:
17 Soho Square, W1D 3QJ, UK - 0870 445 0457.
I actually went over and visited these offices today. Guess what? Serviced offices and no sign LLPX.
Whois on the domain is equally obsure with details privacy protected.
Domain ID:D106754111-LROR
Domain Name:LLPX.ORG
Created On:28-Jun-2005 13:19:04 UTC
Last Updated On:29-Jun-2006 20:45:33 UTC
Expiration Date:28-Jun-2007 13:19:04 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:eNom, Inc. (R39-LROR)
Status:OK
Registrant ID:FD0B17636326DA0D
Registrant Name:Whois Agent
Registrant Organization:Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc.
Registrant Street1:PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
Registrant Street2:C/O llpx.org
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Bellevue
Registrant State/Province:WA
Registrant Postal Code:98007
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.4252740657
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:mchhxncq@whoisprivacyprotect.com
Admin ID:FD0B17636326DA0D
Admin Name:Whois Agent
Admin Organization:Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc.
Admin Street1:PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
Admin Street2:C/O llpx.org
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Bellevue
Admin State/Province:WA
Admin Postal Code:98007
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.4252740657
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:mchhxncq@whoisprivacyprotect.com
Tech ID:FD0B17636326DA0D
Tech Name:Whois Agent
Tech Organization:Whois Privacy Protection Service, Inc.
Tech Street1:PMB 368, 14150 NE 20th St - F1
Tech Street2:C/O llpx.org
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Bellevue
Tech State/Province:WA
Tech Postal Code:98007
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.4252740657
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:mchhxncq@whoisprivacyprotect.com
Name Server:NS1.PROVIDER-ONE.NET
Name Server:NS2.PROVIDER-ONE.NET
Name Server:NS0.PROVIDER-ONE.NET
Name Server:NS3.PROVIDER-ONE.NET
Would purchase land from a website which has no address details? Basic law of due diligence - no open address no deal.
21. Phil - the eco warrior02/02/2007 16:53:57
Domain name:
grosvenorland.co.uk
Registrant:
dave white
Registrant type:
UK Limited Company, (Company number: 3716186)
Registrant's address:
1st Floor Thames House
St John's Road
Sidcup
Kent
DA14 4HD
United Kingdom
Registrant's agent:
Pipex Communications UK Ltd t/a 123-Reg.co.uk [Tag = 123-REG]
URL: http://www.123-reg.co.uk
Relevant dates:
Registered on: 26-Jul-2006
Renewal date: 26-Jul-2008
Registration status:
Registered until renewal date.
Name servers:
ns.123-reg.co.uk
ns2.123-reg.co.uk
WHOIS lookup made at 16:52:07 02-Feb-2007
22. comment posted by [removed]02/02/2007 17:54:31
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
23. Tinkerton03/02/2007 04:17:08
I was interested to read Comment 89 in the previous thread.
( Comment 89 Posted 19/12/2006 on the thread {Property Scam is growing Monday 17 July 2006})
I am wondering if it is the same company {name removed} which is mentioned in Comment 40 of that thread.
Has anyone else had problems with this company.
(Please read between the lines in Comment 40 for the name)
24. Tinkerton03/02/2007 04:31:32
I have just been contacted by a company calling itself Land Futures UK which bills itself as a "broker" rather than a retailer. Their website is www.lfuk.co.uk They also direct you to a link on their site called investorsinland. That website is www.investors in land.com. That site is copyright {Land Banking (UK) Plc }
Are these people just more of the same? Several sites said "sold out". I asked about 2 other sites on their website. I was told that sales on both had been suspended due to "audits". (The Salesman also said that one of the sale-suspended sites was "a 20-year punt".) Thus it would seem that most sites were
25. Tinkerton03/02/2007 04:34:55
I often get sales calls from land brokers. The latest one mentioned "Section 106" exemptions. Seems the developer "bungs" the Local authority some public amentity and in return the LA "bungs" PP.
Has anyone heard anything about this tactic?
26. Phil - the eco warrior03/02/2007 10:10:15
Hear ALL! Hear ALL ! Hear ALL !
After much searching about and questions flying left right and centre to locate the London Land & Property Exchange (LLPX) I can announce that I've pinned them down.
They are currently situated in serviced offices in Chiswick, London.
Address details:
Barley Mow Passage,
Chiswick,
West London,
W4
Directions:
Set back from Chiswick High Road (A315) off Duke’s Avenue and benefits from the wide choice of shops, restaurants and leisure facilities nearby. A short drive to the west, Chiswick High Road connects into the M4 motorway, providing access to Heathrow and the South East motorway network, whilst to the east, Central London is only six miles away. Numerous bus routes also service the area. Nearest tube stations are: Turnham Green/ Chiswick Park
http://www.officialspace.co.uk/london-offices/W/2611_Barley-Mow-Centre-percent-2C10-Barley-Mow-Passage-percent-2C-Chiswick.html
Feel free to pass this onto the FSA. Mind you how long will they last at these serviced offices???
27. Jerry05/02/2007 08:42:00
I've been approached by Walton International based iin Calgary Canada by there HK branch to invest. I'm not dumb so before i do business with them i want to do some research.
I found out a numerous of things so far (in just a few minutes)
- They operate in a very very grey area
- there is actually no guarantee to get your money back because there is no law which covers landbroking ( in not a single lawsystem, they mention it sometimes but that's it)
So I'm wondering I mean I don't need the money should I take a big risk or not?
28. Phil - the eco warrior05/02/2007 09:08:20
Tinkerton,
Had a quick look at Land Futures UK.
Tel: 023 80940000
They use these solicitors :
Allister Kemp
McPhersons Burley & Geach
International House
Headley Road
Grayshott
Hindhead
Surrey
GU26 6NG
Telephone: 01428 605355
Fax: 01428 604859
Website address:
www.burley-geach.co.uk
Whois address is the same as the actual address they advertise
lfuk.co.uk
Domain name:
lfuk.co.uk
Registrant:
Land Futures UK Limited
Registrant type:
UK Limited Company, (Company number: 5741831)
Registrant's address:
Unit 209
Solent Business Centre
Millbrook Road West
Millbrook
Southampton
Hampshire
SO15 0HW
United Kingdom
Registrant's agent:
Fasthosts Internet Ltd [Tag = FASTHOSTS]
URL: http://www.fasthosts.co.uk
Relevant dates:
Registered on: 04-Sep-2006
Renewal date: 04-Sep-2008
Last updated: 14-Dec-2006
Registration status:
Registered until renewal date.
Name servers:
ns0.danevans.com
ns1.danevans.com
They do talk a lot about re-zoning and uplift values post planning etc... These ones might be smart enough to stay out of the CIS definitions. Only further investigation can tell... !
29. Phil - the eco warrior05/02/2007 09:23:23
Another landbank firm which is very interesting is Hayden James Land Acquisitions. The website is currently unavailable (www.haydenjames.co.uk)
This is the process they stated on:
http://www.sovereign-publications.com/haydenjames.htm:
"What Makes Us Different?
We finance the purchase of a large parcel of green belt land in a village or community targeted for growth, ensuring all the criteria that a top builder would use in their selection is met. Our technical experts then create an approved scheme that covers all of the local government requirements for that area, and divide these parcels of land into individual plots. These plots are then made available to private individuals like you, allowing you to acquire an affordable and potentially highly profitable land asset.
Around 10% of every site we purchase is held in trust by an appointed solicitor on behalf of all the investors on the site. Funds from the sale of that percentage then go to pay for all of the services on site. This gives us the impetus to ensure planning permission goes ahead - which is also a reassurance for you, the investor."
30. Peter Evans05/02/2007 15:21:34
I have been contacted recently by the London Land & Property Exchange Ltd, who are marketing plots of land on behalf of Portman Land Investments Ltd. In view of some of the comments expressed in previous posts I have contacted the FSA and provided them with all the details regarding the offered investment, as it does sound like a collective investment to me. Neither comany is registered with the FSA and if what they are offereing is a collective investment, then by law they should be. When they call me back I will be asking why they are not registered and will post the answer in a few days.
31. Phil - the eco warrior05/02/2007 23:29:29
Some asked for some details on CountryWide Land Holdings Ltd - on another thread:
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6XUD8D
Just scroll till you find comment 20 to 21
32. James07/02/2007 11:13:09
Don't be so quick to write off Walton. By coincidence, I went to their Singapore offices today. They're in one of the most expensive buildings in the city at 1 Fullerton, these offices are not serviced, and it was full of really helpful, profressional people - and I'm ot a mug, they were a really decent bunch. 500 people working there, and they've been there for 27 years and are the longest standing co. of this type in SG.
I just think that they, out of all the bad landbankers giving the industry a really bad name, Walton might just be very good at what they do (selling bits of Canada). They do have proven audited ROI statements from past projects to give to you y'know.
How many of these landbankers can actually give you proven past results?
If anyone can tell me anything bad about Walton, I'd be surprised.
33. Phil - the eco warrior07/02/2007 12:05:38
James,
I think we are more interested in UK unregulated/ unregistered fly by nightly "landbank firms" that function as collective investment schemes and/or international firms operating unregulated collective investments within the uk that are equally non compliant to FSA regulations.
I do agree with you, though, that these firms are tarnishing the entire business with the same brush.
34. James08/02/2007 07:42:48
Phil - totally understand
Funny thing is I'd just yesterday had an interview at PremierLand Strategies (who are selling Nantwich, Cheshire plots from Singapore), and then went on to Walton for a walk-in and a chat. Walton sell Canada and are very reputable but they were the ones that mentioned the industry getting a bad name in the UK, and hence I found this blog.
Premierland have been going (apparently) 7 months somewhere around Manchester, and just 2 weeks here in temporary offices while they set up.
I didn't ask who the PremierLand directors used to come from (should have i know), but I've read enough on this site not to go back for a second i/v! All sounds too risky considering all the UK press, and not the kind of product I'd feel happy selling anyway.
Good luck in spreading the word for investors to BE CAREFUL!
35. Phil - the eco warrior09/02/2007 18:34:35
That's ok James. You take care too. There's a lot of angry investors about and some have lost a small fortune. I don't think the fallout has even started yet. ;)
36. Steve12/02/2007 14:09:36
Re: Comments 20, 26 & 30
I have also been contacted by London Land & Property Exchange Ltd.
I won't be parting with any money as I believe that the 'Senior Land Advisor' who called me was the sameperson who called me a couple of years ago when he was at the 'English Land Partnership'.
37. mick bell13/02/2007 13:38:15
hi there.
i have just been notified by hambrook and greenstock,land banking company that they are no longer selling land to uk residents,as they are under investigation by the DTI.
i have 2 plots of land on one of thier sites at sible hedingham,essex,and having just found this site,i am wondering/worrying if i have been had.
the firm are of swiss origin,and acted very professionally throughout the process all the documentation seems to be correct.
this leaves me wondering,since there have been no previous comments about this firm am i ok or not.
if not advice on what to do next would be appreciated.
thanks,
mick.
38. john13/02/2007 17:19:47
I too received the e mail from Hambrook & greenstock yesterday, I have plots in Essex & Marlow, I have found them to be very professional in any dealings to date. i made contact with their client support team today and was told everything is ok and not to worry, but you have to be concerned that you have been had.
39. Will Smith13/02/2007 18:08:57
Hey what's happened to Property Spy?
http://www.propertyspy.com/
40. Jenny14/02/2007 11:10:20
Glad I found this site.
Have already it would seem, had my fingers burnt by ELP, as I have bought 3 plots from them, but have all the TP1 papers too so figure that maybe at some point they will sell!!!
However, have been chased by London Land & Property to buy land at Maidstone, started off at £12,500 and I managed to get them down to £9,000, but then I started looking them up at Companies house, and as somebody else noted, the registered address is different to the one quoted on paperwork, I smelled a rat then found this website - so thanks guys, don' think I'lll be investing this time round.
cheers
41. Will Smith14/02/2007 19:37:27
I phoned PropertySpy today and fter 5 minutes got though, I asked why all there websites were down, they said they had sold ALL their land and were restructuring their business! Phone back in 4 weeks!
Something smells a bit fishy there.
42. Phil - the eco warrior14/02/2007 22:52:21
Hey... why is everyone who was conatced by ELP now getting contacted by London Land & Property Exchange Ltd. The answer has to be that its the same database they are working from. Does that mean it's the same scammers running the show?
Mick Bell & John,
If Hambrook & Greenstock told you they would handle the planning application process and manage the investment then they are most probably in breach of FSA regulations especially if the have not registered with the FSA. Sounds like another illegal unregulated collective investment scheme.
43. john15/02/2007 09:09:34
Phil - eco warrier
I not sure how this affects things but Hambrook & Greenstock have stated on all their correspondence that they are not regulated by FSA and do not operate a collective investment scheme - I spoke to them again yesterday and they assured me all was definitely ok with any plots and investments - don't really know where i stand
44. Phil - the eco warrior20/02/2007 14:23:34
John,
Which ever way you stand you probably paid more than the plot was worth. Just ask them if they are prcessing the planning application for the land?
If they say yes then they are in breach.
45. Fuel Problem21/02/2007 07:08:16
Have a real problem with the company mentioned in Comments 40 & 89 of the first version of this . The company variously described as "Despite the abbreviation their name produces ([removed]!) they don't seem to be as full of gas as most "landbank" companies I have come across"
About a year ago they sent me all kinds of emails & PDFs but when I re-approached them last week they gave me the bum's rush. If they are reputable then Lord help any of us in more dubious schemes....
46. abdool raoof21/02/2007 13:02:46
i have read this site and it appears that there is TOTAL negativity about this type of investment.
why? land is after all a REAL VALUE ASSET, not like some stock (which may crash at any time) i really do not see what all the complaining is about - maybe i am just too naive too see this a scam - a scam is where someone takes your money with zero intention of giving it back. true? these people are speculating on if the land will be developed - a bit like investing in a stock and waiting for it to rise? LOOK as with all investing there are good and bad and it always pays to research before investing (as i have) and i have found that as long as i own this land it is an asset which MAYBE only MAYBE in the future worth more than i paid for it. LAND VALUE IS INCREASING BY THE DAY you dont have to be a rocket scientist to realise this.
have a good day
happy investor.
47. PropertySCAM21/02/2007 13:43:27
We'd normally delete rubbish like this but on this occasion, for amusement and for the benefit of other readers, we will instead point out that "abdool raoof" posts his comment numbered 46 above from an Internet address in Thailand belonging to Comnet, an Internet Service Provider there.
That same Internet address is, according to several reputable sources, an open proxy server.
For the non-technical, this means that "abdool" may not actually be in Thailand at all and may be using this proxy server to disguise his true location (Singapore?).
We might also be tempted to conclude that "abdool" has not given his real name and that he may not be wholly impartial on the matter of land plot sales.
"abdool", if you are listening, the REAL VALUE of a typical land plot ASSET as sold by a land banker is a few hundred pounds, not the several thousand pounds they typically charge for it. But then, you'd probably know that anyway as we suspect you may be in the plot sales business yourself.
Don't bother posting again. Your future posts will be deleted.
48. john daynes21/02/2007 14:04:59
property SCAM as this is a website which is discussing plot sales i totally agree with what you are doing and outlining and who you are exposing, but i really think all comments should be posted good or bad, this may give indiviuals who have invested in land the chance to find a good company who is doing it right and hopefully make some money from this
49. Abdool Raoof21/02/2007 14:16:57
My name is Abdool, i am british and left the UK 5 years ago because of racsism!I AM IN CURRENTLY IN THAILAND ON BUSINESS, IN FACT I LIVE AND WORK IN BEIJING. I INVEST IN VARIED ASSET CLASSES AND LAND IS ONE OF THEM. 10% of my overall assets are in land in various locations (incidently ZERO of those are on your website)
i thought message board POSTS were to encourage opinion????because thats all mine is....what do you have to hide?OR what are YOU trying to protect? i do not want to get confrontational as YOU have, just expressing an opinion. agreed that the land is or maybe over priced but in these parts of the world it pays to barter. PLEASE NOTE MY EARLIER POST WHERE I SAY THAT THERE ARE GOOD AND BAD INVESTMENTS.
example: In thailand there are many small businesses that sell lets say baseball caps(BAD EXAMPLE).the cost of each baseball cap is 10baht to produce - the stall sellers sell for 150-350baht (www.xe.com) depending on how much you want to barter. Does that make this a scam? NO I THINK NOT.
my point is that NOT ALL of these land banking schemes are scams - i believe (my opinion) that there maybe a positive return in the future and if you research carefully you may just find the right investment.
ps anyone who buys anything over the telephone should think twice as this only encourages these louts - I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING OVER THE TELEPHONE AND ONLY ONCE I AM SATISFIED(after visiting offices and seeing operations) WILL I HAND OVER MY HARD EARNED MONEY.
PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THIS POST, as it only contains MY opinion which i believe is valuable in making myself and others aware of whats going on in this cruel world.
over to you.
Regards
AR
50. PropertySCAM21/02/2007 14:27:47
OK, we believe you Abdool, but you should take care where you get Internet service as the computer at your IP address or a computer which used that address recently has been infected with a virus, causing the open proxy server.
Yes, it is possible to invest wisely in land. That is not what we are here for. We are here to expose the activities of a specific type of company or partnership which has grown up over the past few years with the specific aim of using the promise of unrealistic growth in land value as a means of parting naive investors from their cash.
There are legal ways of using land as an investment vehicle. There is also one surefire illegal way of using land and that is as the sort of unauthorised collective investment we typically discuss here.
That is why the tone of the site is so negative about land investment - it is not that land investment is bad per se, it is because the entire business is infested with scammers. That is all.
Good luck with your investments. They probably aren't land banking in the sense we are discussing here.
51. Adbool Raoof21/02/2007 14:49:23
thank you, i cannot help this ISP as i am in a hotel just about to get a couple of hours sleep(before i wake up to watch LIVERPOOLFC at 3am) so this will be my last post. GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR CHALLENGE - I DO BELIEVE THAT IN FUTURE THESE SCHEMES WILL BE BENEFICIAL TO ALL AS THE COST OF PROPERTY IN THE UK WILL BE SO HIGH SOME FAMILIES JUST SIMPLY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO BUY. (ITS THE BANKS THAT YOU SHOULD WORRY ABOUT) 
on the flip side - marking out land with posts is totally unproffesional, cheap and and i guess is obviously an eyesore.
ADVICE.
1 NEVER BUY OVER THE TELEPHONE
2 INSIST ON MEETING FACE TO FACE
3 REVIEW THE FACTS
4 ASK FOR REFERENCES
5 and only once YOU are satisfied should you hand over your hard earned money.
bye for now
AR
PS MY NAME IS RAOOF NOT RAOOL also if you are still around in 5 years when i EXPECT to get a healthy return i will post again.
52. comment posted by [removed]21/02/2007 16:45:24
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
53. comment posted by [removed]21/02/2007 18:35:07
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
54. Phil - the eco warrior21/02/2007 18:43:53
I just got another call from BLH... that's Berkeley Land Holdings. I checked these ones out with companies house and they are not registered as a company. I just can't believe the money they are asking. £50,000 for 1/10 of an acre of greenbelt land around Dartford. I pointed out that they are operating a CIS to which the senior broker got very irate and angry over the phone. When I said I had no money you should have seen the abuse I got on the phone. The rogue salesman starting saying he had me on his monitor as an investor and that I would not be on his monitor if I had no money.
Don't get bullied or intimidated by these rogue sales tactics. You just get the impression that these chaps have taken lessons from a film called The Boiler Room. Hopefully, they will end the same way as the rogue salesmen in that film.
55. Will Smith21/02/2007 22:00:48
Phil, 54: Your comment about BLH, can you confirm the company by perhaps their website?
As there is a very respected company simular named:
http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/
Thank you
56. Phil - the eco warrior26/02/2007 12:30:35
########
Will,
I can confirm that it's not this company: http://www.berkeleygroup.co.uk/
##########
It's another firm that uses a very similar name. They call themselves Berkeley Land Holdings or BLH. The last information I was able to get was that ex CountryWide Land Holdings partners are behind this operation.
On another note... can someone explain to me why the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is not actively looking at these firms because it would seem to me that they are best regulated to cope with them.
Further on another note, investors who have already been scammed or are getting scammed ought to pursue joint civil action against former directors or partners in landbank scam firms rather than go for criminal action through say SFO, DTI, FSA Police etc.
The reason for this is that the burden of proof is then based on the balance of probabilities. A much better way to win your day in the courts.
Anyone care to expand on these thoughts please do....
57. PropertySCAM26/02/2007 13:55:04
Will Smith, if you want to post in reply to Phil - the eco warrior, please note that all of your recent comments here have been completely blank. The comments system here uses Javascript. Please ensure you have Javascript enabled and that any security system you are using is not preventing execution of our scripts.
58. comment posted by [removed]28/02/2007 10:55:28
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
59. robert paisley02/03/2007 16:32:06
Does any one know if Glebe Estates are in liquidation. Also Rubicon are operating out of the Far East.
60. mick k04/03/2007 08:22:50
good comments from Phil 56, have we any legal heads on board or do any of you have a friend who is a solicitor who may be able to help us.
These scammers are making millions, i was contacted by a firm this week calling them self United Land Holdings or investments, i did what i should have done 2yrs ago to Countrywide Land Holdings, stopped him dead and hung up. we've all been had whats the chances of use getting our money back
61. Fergal05/03/2007 12:21:31
Hi,
Its scary whats going on. I just kinda fell onto this site thank god although I have a deposit paid. I was approached at a property expo in dublin by this company www.ali-plc.com. Good salesman. Site is in south godstone surrey. Usual to told me I'd make a fortune! Has anyone heard of them?
62. Irons05/03/2007 23:30:39
anyone who has got land purchased from Hambrock and Greenstock, we keep in touch as i have 3 plots and no-one seems to answer calls over there any more
63. Dickie06/03/2007 15:27:51
Hi Irons
I have purchased from H&G. As well as a DTI invertigation, I fear they may have gone into liquidation. As they wouldnt asnwer my calls or mails, I surfed and found this which I had translated from a Swiss web-site:
Company again: Hambrook & Greenstock AG in liquidation. Domicile again: c/o Tresag trust and management consultation AG, Gessnerallee 28, 8001 Zurich. Postal address again: Hambrook & Greenstock AG, c/o Tresag trust and, management consultation AG, p.o. box, 8023 Zurich. The society is dissolved with resolution of the general assembly of 05.02.2007"
Guess that's my money kissed goodbye
64. Irons07/03/2007 23:39:09
Hi Dickie , how much did you spend on plots?
Do you have a number i could call you on to discuss?
65. Dickie08/03/2007 13:14:39
Irons here you go +44 7973 518454
66. Dickie08/03/2007 14:48:42
Ok - update on Hambrook and Greenstock
If you can't get hold of them, call "Tresah Treuhung and Unternehmunsberatungs" in Zurich on +41 44 218 80 60 and ask for Renee Berlinger. This company and H&G AG are related (not sure quite how, but Renee says he is/was a H&G employee also?).
H&G AG have gone into voluntary liquidation pending both DTI and FSA investigations into them running a CIS. Renee said that to sell to the UK investors will not be viable for them if they have to comply with the FSA regs (too expensive?) So they wound up the H&G already and most of the staff have gone. (A couple of guys - Kevin Rendell and David Pelie - are continuing to do client support activities allegedly)
However, H&G AG has not gone into bankruptcy and Renee says the company still owns its share (about 50%)of the three plots at SH, CH and MR.
Renee says he (they) are still interested in pursuing planning permission and wish to see a return on their investment (they have a lot of sunk costs, irrespective of all the money I and others have given them), but he is not sure what model they will be allowed to use. All is in the air pending the investigations....
For example, they are not currently actively using Land Holding Investments (LHI) to do their land searches, so I don't think there is any active work on planning permission going.
Hope that is of help to others...
I think I believed Renee - he seemed frank and sincere. But maybe I have no credibility anymore in judging people 
Dickie
67. robert 10/03/2007 17:34:49
I too purchased 2 plots at sible hedingham costing 12,000 from hambrook and greenstock. after about 20 efforts i got through to some guy in zurich who sounded very unprofessional. i live in london and am looking for a suitable solictor at the moment and would possibly team up with others in same situation
68. robert 10/03/2007 17:36:17
robertmhealy@yahoo.com
69. Harry U11/03/2007 01:02:35
Anyone purchase from Prop Spy at the Banstead Road, Ewell, Epsom site?
70. michael11/03/2007 17:56:40
Hi, Robert, Dickie, Irons and anyone else who have bought through Hambrook and greenstock, I also have bought 1 plot at SH. I talked to a guy 2 weeks ago and he told me not to worry, things will be ok, I'm not too sure, be nice for all of us to stay in touch incase we can help each other. Michael
71. Homer14/03/2007 12:07:15
Hi, just stumbled on this site and am now worried! i purchased a plot of land in Southwold, Suffolk last year through TownField Land Investments and cant seem to get any sensible answers from them since i paid up! has anyone got any infromation on this company or is anyone in a similar position with them?
Thanks H
72. Willi Smit15/03/2007 23:40:12
My house overlooks a site in George Green near Slough which has been partly sold off under a landbanking scheme but part has been held back by the company because it has a farmhouse and outbuildings and therefore may actually have development potential. If anybody can offer advice on opposing the developers plans to replace one farmhouse and outbuildings with 60 dwellings I would be grateful. Any info on why the FSA seem to be invoved with some land scammers and not others would also be appreciated.
73. PropertySCAM16/03/2007 09:49:38
Willi - who is the land banker?
74. Dumbell16/03/2007 20:13:34
I am also a Hambrook & Greenstock investor keen to form up with others in same boat. Don't know if anyone else was using Monpelier Tax Planning company but received a letter today from them informing us that they couldn't continue to offer tax planning advice as H&G being investigated by DTI. Now having a pretty dull evening reading these sort of posts. Anyway, don't know if anyone is good at setting up web groups like Yahoogroups but would seem like a good thing to do to get us all talking together about what can be done?
75. PropertySCAM16/03/2007 21:05:56
Dumbell - we have created a Google group precisely for this purpose.
http://groups.google.com/group/plot-owners?hl=en
It's very new but you have to start somewhere. May as well be here...
76. Willi Smit16/03/2007 23:14:50
The plot seller and retainer of some land is UKLI - I felt a reluctance to mention company names as I have noticed you are removing some. Why??
77. PropertySCAM17/03/2007 10:25:22
Willi - we occasionally remove or edit comments which in our opinion may be construed as libelous. Your comment is just a question about one land banking scheme.
The FSA treats all land bankers equally. Operating an unauthorised collective investment scheme is against the law. The problem for most land bankers is that it is almost impossible to conceive any land banking scheme that might actually pay off if it is not run collectively. Also, the interpretation of what makes such schemes collective is very broad. See this paragraph from the press release about Actionjack (trading as the English Land Partnership or ELP):
CIB [Companies Investigation Branch] also alleged that, Actionjack had taken part in the promotion of an unauthorised Collective Investment Scheme because individuals were investing in a plot of land in anticipation of planning permission being obtained on the site as a whole resulting in the value of their plot increasing. Whilst individuals own their own plot separately to other investors, any application for planning permission would be made collectively on behalf of the individual plot holders by either ELP or another unidentified body using the pooled resources of the investors. Investors do not therefore have day to day control over the planning process.
UKLI clearly recognises this issue and they have stated publicly that they are in touch with the FSA regarding regulation of their business:
As you may be aware I am several months into the application process with the FSA to ensure our clients can be managed in a regulated environment and I agree that this is a sensible way forward.
(The above quoted from UKLI's reply to Greg Mulholland's letter to them last year.)
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/d6plinks/6W5NSN
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/2/CWLT-6W8E5T/$File/UKLIGM.pdf
We await the outcome of these discussions with great interest.
In the mean time, if you wish to oppose the developer's plans to replace a farmhouse and other buildings with dwellings, you will need to proceed exactly as you would if objecting to any other development.
Is the site green belt or does it have any other protection? If so, then the first thing that the land banker must do is get that protection removed. The site would then need to be included within the settlement boundary (it is currently outside it, presumably). Finally, outline planning permission must be sought.
This is an extremely lengthy process and it may just be too early to intervene.
What is the local planning authority's position on the matter? Have they put an article 4(1) direction in place on the site?
78. Willi Smit17/03/2007 15:03:25
If an article 4(1) direction is an order preventing plots being fenced then yes I believe this is in place and the land is green belt. The council appear to be opposed and the local community is making its views known.
In fact this development sound exactly like the one referred to in the letter from UKLI with precisely the same facilities being offered and claims of drug abuse being made and is also very near to a hospital. Or does this just mean they use the same arguments at different sites?
The application goes before the planning commitee next month and is expected to be refused. Do you know if UKLI have succeeded in obtaining planning consent elsewhere? Do you have an opinion on the chances of any landbanker being licenced by the FSA or any idea when or if they will make a ruling regarding UKLI.
79. PropertySCAM17/03/2007 16:00:03
1. So far as we are aware, neither UKLI nor any other land banking company has ever succeeded in gaining any new planning consents.
2. It is quite feasible for a land banker to be authorised as a collecive investment provider by the FSA. There is however a need to deal with the issue of history. If a land banker has already been trading and has sold plots prior to authorisation:
- were those earlier plot sales illegal?
- will they be retrospectively made legal?
- new investors in an authorised CIS will have the benefit of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme - what about those old investors?
As to when UKLI might become FSA authorised, we simply have no idea but think it unlikely to happen very soon.
80. Phil - the eco warrior19/03/2007 15:52:27
I can't really see agencies ever regulating land bank firms such as these. The reverse, I can see further clamp downs and closures. There are several reasons why I believe more shut downs are going to happen non of which I'm going to elaborate but, if I can see it so to can the agencies.
What is worth repeating is that wronged investors should not wait and see and instead push ahead with a joint civil action. The simple reason is that the burden of proof becomes a balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt as in criminal proceedings. With these firms because a lot of issues are not clear cut deliberately due to playing the grey legal game, on advice by solicitors who should have known better, civil action is a stronger way forward.
81. Willi Smit19/03/2007 23:06:00
Thanks for the info - I leave this site better educated - thanks and good luck
82. comment posted by [removed]22/03/2007 23:00:21
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
83. Will Smith01/04/2007 15:56:56
In the past I bid against some of the companies you have been let down by, I know some of the land on some of these companies books.
If I was in your shoes I would find out who the other plot owners are, who owns what at each site. This is public knowledge, go to:
http://www.landreg.gov.uk/regional/areas/
Look up the area of the land, then give them a call and they will go through how to make a search, on their standard search form. It will come back with a cost, this will vary to the number of plots.
You will then know who owns what.
From there I would go and look for a Chartered Planner:
http://www.rtpiconsultants.co.uk/
Choose a town planner for the area the land is at. They will put you in the picture, with time frames and costs, or a simple "No" this is not going to happen in 10, 20 years.
There is no doubt in my mind [backed with the advice we took at the time] that some of the land stood a 75% + chance of receiving a change of use.
Good luck
84. PropertySCAM01/04/2007 22:18:12
Will, we're curious.
In an earlier exchange here you categorically denied being associated with any land banking company after someone objected to your apparent endorsement of one such company.
How is it, then, that you have been in a position to bid against some of the failed land banking companies and apparently know some of this land so well?
85. Brian Wall03/04/2007 21:14:55
Hi I have purchased 2 plots at Sible Heddingham from Hambrook&Greenstock and now I do not know where I stand I have been informed that I legally own these plots but what sort of investment is it I purchased the 2nd plot on the information that I recieved regarding land searches and was informed that plannihg consent was imminent what happens now have I got land that is worthless
86. plot master04/04/2007 08:05:58
"harry u"
I have purshased a plot through property spy at bastead, let me know if you know of others who have bought plots at the same place, we could possibly hire a solicitor etc.
87. comment posted by [removed]04/04/2007 21:31:53
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
88. MR H.A05/04/2007 22:43:23
ref: from Comment 69 on paid by CreditCard topic
The solicitor firm I went to is Fisher Meredith, there very large & reputable company http://www.fishermeredith.co.uk/practiceareas/
Mr John Deane is the solicitor who deals with the situation that were in. So I have gained his permission to give out his email address out, so if your in my situation then it's defentely worth writing to him and explain your situation.
*** John.Deane@fishermeredith.co.uk ***
I actually went on with them after the free consultatation which probably worth a bit since he actually explained the clauses step by step.
89. comment posted by [removed]09/04/2007 19:51:22
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
90. Donlap16/04/2007 07:59:12
Gents,
I am facing the same problem you all have described. I have one plot alreadu registered at Inland. The second one hasn't been registered yet. However, as French resident, I am wondering wether our property title is valid though B&G has gone in liquidation. I suggest to start a cooperative and find the building authorization ourselves.
Could we have some advises from Zavala and Moscoso that was the one issuing the TP1.
91. Phil - the eco warrior20/04/2007 00:44:53
Will Smith,
You could have used a more original broker name... lol
I can smell the brown stuff from here ... You must be scared witless about a civil action. ...
Even so, don't let that soap slip from your hands in that shower when they (the powers that be) catch up with you. Which they will. Only a matter of time.
92. Will Smith20/04/2007 13:16:06
Hey Ego.. that is a shortened version of my name, even you might be able to work out it's William, but hey.. maybe not!
Why should I be scared? I offered a suggestion.
Over the past 12 years I have sold land through Options to a few of the big house builders. Let's see if you can work that one out, maybe you can living in your Wendy house.
Wise man once said: If you have have nothing to say - keep your big gob shut.
Have a nice day there.
93. Phil - the eco warrior20/04/2007 17:01:55
Will Smith,
Getting rubbed the wrong way are we. Oh Dear !
Don't matter how big you are or you get. The higher you climb that roppy landbank ladder your involved in the harder you'll fall.
Didn't you know that once one agency looks at these affairs that triggers loads of other agencies to look in? Not only in this country but right across the globe.
Have you ever head of the saying give them enough rope. Well I just bet those agencies are giving landbank firms plenty of rope to hang themselves in.
Just my other 5 cents worth.
94. Will Smith20/04/2007 19:48:39
Hey Ergo..
I've done nothing wrong, read my comments.
Wise man once said: Never assume!
95. PropertySCAM20/04/2007 20:40:34
Will Smith and Phil - please settle your differences elsewhere.
Comments on this thread will now be closed. We may open a new one soon. In the mean time, other open comments threads are available for relevant discussion.
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