Five million pound landbanking scam exposed
1. comment posted by [removed]31/08/2007 07:29:59
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2. David 04/09/2007 09:50:06
Homepage: http://groups.google.com/group/plot-owners/browse_thread/thread/...&hl=en
Read this its a 100% SCAM
David
3. comment posted by [removed]10/09/2007 11:46:40
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4. comment posted by [removed]28/09/2007 12:09:46
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5. lazy genius02/10/2007 16:28:12
Echoing frencissca's sentiments; there seem to be a lot of people assuming that any of these scheme's is a scam. However it seems to me that there are only a couple of cases where companies have actually misled the public and sold plots claiming that they will get planning permission, when it is UNLIKELY (never say never). A lot of people have fallen for the trap (as a result of their own greed) and feel bitter but it doesn't mean they should just automatically slag off any land investment scheme.
Not everyone can afford to buy huge areas of pasture land so if somebody can buy it then split it up to make it possible for more people to own a piece then I say go for it. Don't be naive and think that you'll make $$$ on your little piece but if it goes up in value then hey, it's a good investment.
A lot of the material on this site seems to be old - where they are talking about farm land being worth 5k-6k per acre. Look on primelocation.com and you'll be lucky to find land at that price!! It's more like 10k - if that's indicative of the increase in value of land then i'm in! Unfortunately I can only afford a couple of acres at the moment but i'm hoping to build my investment portfolio organically over the next 10 years.
But to those bitter people out there; you got stung by your own greed, get over it. And remember, if it seems to good to be true, it probably is!
6. alan02/10/2007 16:32:28
Some interesting points on this site. So we can safely say to avoid any Collective Investment Schemes, and definitely avoid anyone promising quick returns on land due to planning permission being granted.
However, I would be interested to hear your opinions on the simple practice of splitting up large areas of land to make it more affordable to investors who perhaps can't afford to buy 20 acres of farmland, but want to invest in land.
It's not unheard of in other industries to enjoy economies of scale by buying large quantities of something and then selling it on, so why should land be any different?
What's the general consensus?
7. PropertySCAM02/10/2007 18:32:39
alan and lazy genius seem to miss the point.
Properly constituted and authorised, a Collective Investment Scheme is the only way this pooling of investment in land can possibly work.
Consider an analogy.
You have £10k to spend on stocks and shares. You could either:
1 - Spend it all on shares in a single company at 10-100 times their present value, in the hope that these shares will ultimately be worth yet more - this is possible, but perhaps a rather long shot.
2 - Buy realistically priced shares in a managed fund with a balanced portfolio - a unit trust or similar.
Same with land:
1 - You can buy a single freehold plot in the middle of a green belt field for 10-100 times its present value in the hope that it will ultimately be worth yet more, OR
2 - You could buy a share in a managed scheme with a spread portfolio of land and a single, central entity responsible for managing the portfolio through to development.
The latter would be a Collective Investment Scheme, if such a scheme existed, but it is the only way this kind of investment could ever work.
Here are a few questions you might consider:
How many land banking companies operate authorised Collective Investment Schemes? Why are they all so very keen to demonstrate that they do not, in fact, do this at all? Why does buying a share of their land banking action carry such a high markup?
So, until some enterprising company does set up a real land bank as a properly authorised CIS, your only sensible alternative is to cut out the middle man and buy your own green belt field. If you are careful in your selection and don't mind the still not inconsiderable risk, then you can get a lot more than 0.1 acres for your £10k.
And, lazy genius, our figures for land values are from the RICS land price index and are current, average figures. If you see land advertised on PrimeLocation at higher prices, it may well be worth those higher prices - our figures are simply average figures after all.
But it could just as easily be an overambitious price, capitalising on the same hope value bubble that has already snared so many small investors.
8. comment posted by [removed]02/10/2007 18:49:10
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9. alan03/10/2007 20:30:28
I'm not sure exactly which point i've missed as i was only asking a rhetorical question. I'm completely new to land investment and am interested in knowing how to spot the real scam from a genuine investment opportunity. By the very nature of this site I expect the information to be somewhat one-sided but you do come across as having a rather bitter disposition.
I'm not sure exactly about the legislation with CIS but I was saying that they should be avoided if they are illegal. However, what constitutes a CIS? If the only option is to buy a large piece of land myself then fine, but is there NO option to buy a smaller piece of land without paying 10k for 0.1 acre?
10. kevin tan04/10/2007 08:53:10
I invested in 11 plots of Concorde Village (Hounslow) in June. Like Frencissca, besides the sale propositions by PP, I have relied on information I read in online forums written by people that I didn't know. It was sometimes hard to differentiate facts from just opinions, perceptions, hear-says or simply bad experiences. I must admit here that it did give me some jitters at times after reading such negative news. Occasionally I would login to PP's Online Client information pages to re-read the DLP report (which is very detailed and professionally done, I would say), and each time it seemed to be a viable proposition.
While online forums like PropertyScam provide a lot of useful factual information, as Alan has pointed out, they tend to adopt a somewhat cautious, and even bitter or negative disposition. I can understand the seemingly over-cautious position taken by PropertyScam as its mission is to provide factual informaion to help small land investors and owners, not to get them into trouble.
But to say that all land investment schemes are land scams is as unconvincing an argument as saying all MLM's are pyramid schemes - there are many reputable MLM companies around. We should do our research and due dilligence of each case in an objective manner. We should listen to both sides of the story. When you listen to PP, UKLI or Walton, they will tell you all the good things about their offerings. But on the other end, there are so many negative comments and so much doubts about such schemes in online forums. You may say that these contraditions happen because many people have actually been scammed by many similar land investment schemes. Another possible reason is that the investors do not even understand the risks in the first place before investing. For example, many land banking investments are long-term investment and it is unrealistic to expect any return within 3 years. Even if an early exit is possible, the investor may suffer a loss. When an investor decides to invest, he/she is more driven by greed. But when something is amiss, fear dominates. Unfortunately, the silence adopted by PP, UKLI and Walton in online forums has somewhat lent some weights to such negative comments and opinions. My point is we should try to do as much research as possible before investing. Forums like PropertyScam help to strike some balance in our pre-investment and post-investment assessments.
Another issue is that even if such investment schemes are based on sound economic principles, they may be "illegal" because approval has not been obtained from the relevant authorities in the country. A case in point here is that a CIS (Collective Investment Scheme) requries approval from the FSA in the UK and it is generally believed that PP's strategic land investment is a collective investment scheme. There was no approval by FSA to PP to operate such a scheme. Though PP had denied that they were running a CIS during their Client's Progress meeting in KL about 4 months ago (not to cause unnecessary panic among their clients I think), I strongly believe that this was the main reason they moved their operations to Singapore from London, while there might be other reasons such as taxes as pointed out by Frencissca. But what is wrong with moving to Singapore? Wasn't it a smart business decision instead of sitting there and wait for the FSA to "investigate" when there is already a prima facie case of flouting the law, be it intentional or unintentional (why the FSA did not act earlier before this problem became widespread was another puzzle to me)? Many legitimate companies move their businesses to more business friendly countries to avoid taxes and restrictive regulations.
Now the next question to ask is: does this make it "legal" if PP operates from Singapore? I really don't know. Anyone who knows about Singapore's laws regarding such investment schemes? And what is the UK Government's position on CIS, assuming it is the case here, operating from overseas? By the way, PP, UKLI and Walton are participating at a property expo in Singapore this month and probably another one in KL in November. Check out this link for more : http://www.smartexpos.com/smartexpo2007/index.htm
I hope I am not boring everyone with such a long comment. In an uncertain investment situation, it is better to be on the safe side of caution, i.e. be very critical in our assessment, understand the risks first and don't invest if we feel uncomfortable about it . Once we decide on the viability of an investment, the final decision to invest depends on our risk tolerance. It makes no difference whether it is PP, UKLI or Walton or other forms of investments. If it turns out to be a wrong decision, we must be prepared to lose some of our money or just say goodbye to it. This is the risk of doing business. Nothing is sure. In our case here, the land may never be converted within 10 years, or even 20 years, whatever they have "promised" us. If we are not willing to take reasonalbe risk (reasonable in terms of risk-return tradeoff), then it is better to leave our money in the bank. Peace of mind assured
11. PropertySCAM04/10/2007 14:33:42
Alan - see our comment below about "bitter".
And we regret that you have still missed the point. A land banking CIS would be a very good thing were such an option available to you. The illegally operated CISs that have been closed down were the bad thing.
The fact that a newer, wiser land banker may boast that his scheme is not a CIS does not make that scheme desirable. It simply means that he wishes, quite legally but for reasons you may want to question, to avoid regulation by any body charged with protecting the rights of small investors. His non-CIS scheme involves a simple real estate transaction - you buy a freehold plot at an inflated price. The underlying principle is caveat emptor. You are responsible for your own due diligence (which most investors fail to do) and there is no safety net.
Finally, yes you can buy more than 0.1 acre for your 10k, but it would be better if you had more. You would need to seek the advice of an experienced land planning professional and possibly to form a consortium with a very small number of like minded friends. Then you might have made an investment which could ultimately pay off. It would still be long term and highly speculative, but not a completely lost cause.
12. PropertySCAM04/10/2007 14:53:41
Thanks for the comment, Kevin.
You are the second person to accuse us of bitterness, so we'll respond to that first.
We operate this site for entirely altruistic motives and at our own expense to warn potential investors of the pitfalls of land banking schemes. Our posts are all from independent sources and any comments we make in discussions here are informed by fact. We have never invested in plots ourselves and would never do so - we believe the risks are simply too high. We are, however, in touch with a very large number of people who have bought plots and now wish they hadn't, having staked their life savings on the impressive promises made to them by a plot salesman. Some have even remortgaged their homes to obtain the funds needed for the investment. None will ever see a return because the companies which sold them the land have wound up, either compulsorily or in many cases voluntarily. This does not make us bitter, but it does make us very sad.
Secondly, on the question of legality, an unauthorised CIS is illegal wherever it is operated, if it is marketed to UK residents. It does not matter if it is in Singapore or on the moon. However, if a land banking company has incorporated overseas and is not marketing to UK residents then its activities may or may not be legal, depending on the local regulatory frameworks in the territories where it is incorporated or active.
This is all largely irrelevant.
To understand the risk, you need simply to understand the way the British planning system works and the wide range of values of land, even where that land is apparently similar, depending on the planning status of the land.
A green belt field near existing development may be worth up to £10k per acre, though that is a high number. You can't build anything there, so its future value will not increase by much.
That same field, in the South East of England and with detailed permission for residential development, could be worth £5m per acre.
Now, how can you take the £10k acre and make it a £5m acre?
Can you do it by buying the £10k acre, dividing it up into plots 8 yards square (you would need 8-10 of these to build a small house) and selling each for £6,250 (that is £473k per acre), then waiting for a developer to come and buy that acre for £5m? Might there be a little more to it than that?
- Do call the local planning authority and ask them whether your site is a candidate for planning.
- Do get independent planning advice.
- Don't just take our word for it.
- Don't rely on your own common sense.
This is a minefield and you venture into it without a guide at considerable risk.
13. comment posted by [removed]08/10/2007 21:35:54
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14. comment posted by [removed]17/10/2007 12:25:57
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15. comment posted by [removed]17/10/2007 12:33:40
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16. comment posted by [removed]17/10/2007 13:09:30
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17. comment posted by [removed]18/10/2007 09:58:07
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18. comment posted by [removed]18/10/2007 15:35:59
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19. salina29/10/2007 03:56:13
Hi, I went to a Jardin smith seminar in KL, I've been curious, has anyone got successful investments before? can anyone share?
20. comment posted by [removed]19/12/2007 10:39:19
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21. pluto0928/01/2008 16:04:15
Last week i had the most rudest phone call ever.
The company were trying to sell me a plot of land. I asked questions and they were so so rude, it was unreal..
Then they phoned back a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th time.. getting worse... it was like Faulty Towers!
The company was:
London Office:
Graystone Developments
Tower 42
25 Old Broad Street
City of London
London
United Kingdom
EC2N 1HN
Telephone
#44 (0) 207 877 1106
Facsimile
#44 (0) 207 877 0708
E-mail
enquiries@graydev.com
BEWARE
22. comment posted by [removed]28/01/2008 16:07:18
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23. pluto 0929/01/2008 11:23:54
Homepage: http://info@livewire.co.uk
Ref comment 21, look under vincent bithell and this is money and fake companies exposed link below
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=327061&in_page_id=19
24. comment posted by [removed]02/02/2008 00:23:06
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25. comment posted by [removed]02/02/2008 00:23:47
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26. Pluto04/02/2008 13:46:13
Hello
The company UKLI keeps on coming up here for whatever reason.
This will interest you I'm sure.
You see the UKLI is now just one of many companies within a group, take a look:
http://www.ukcapitalinvestments.com/aboutus_ourteam.php
Having followed these type of companies for 15-20 years, [yes Gladwish was the 1st, nothing to do with the UKLI] anyway I guess it all came from the UKLI.
Enjoy
27. Michael19/02/2008 19:41:59
BEWARE NEW SCAM BEING OFFERED, DON'T GET CAUGHT
I have been talking with a land bank group (name witheld as they are all the same, none are innocent) for quite some time and I nearly made a bad decision to invest over 20k, however and thank goodness I backtracked. This did no go down well with tpp and after more consideration, questioning their financial books, I decided to "test" them out.
I do not recommend this to people who do not have the cash sitting in your account doing Jack! I invested way under 10k, not much compared to many on this forum/site, and sat back waiting. All the forms came, hooray (sarcastically). I believe I have a plot of land where I can one day bring my caravan and squat, and then expect the gov to pay for everything (if I ever would).
Now here is the crunch!!
Two weeks down the line, the broker calls you up and says "I got fantastic news, blah, blah, blah" 30 mins later he finishes with his pitch and says I got someone who wants to speak to you from the corporate section! ohh, you would think. Apparently a very prominent institutional trader wants me (how honoured) to join "them" in purchasing land for commercial development and the pitch mainly for bigger profits. However this businessman who is apparently very famous, does not come up on a google search, he has terrible communication skill, his verbal etiquette is appauling.
I said no multiple times, and it seemed that he was also deaf. Eventually the pin dropped and he let me go, so dissapointed he didnt get more of my cash.
All I say is beware.
I am watching both the finiancial status of the company and my trade and will post here in the future to keep you all up to date.
BTW beware if they are trading as an umbrella company, no liability to the larger company if all goes bad.
DO NOT TRADE WITH UMBRELLA CORPORATION WITH NO FINANCIAL DATA. Ask them for their account info and see them run
28. Black Knight20/02/2008 07:56:13
Hello all,
LAND INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
LAND INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED
LAND INTERNATIONAL (MARKETING) LIMITED
LAND INTERNATIONAL (FAR EAST) LIMITED
On 14th February, BERR has presented a petition in the High Court to wind up the above companies in the public interest.
The petitions are listed for hearing on 5 March 2008.
Follow this link http://www.gnn.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=352630&NewsAreaID=2
Black Knight.
29. PropertySCAM20/02/2008 09:40:45
Thanks for the heads up, Black Knight.
30. comment posted by [removed]24/02/2008 12:18:32
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31. comment posted by [removed]24/02/2008 12:19:58
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32. comment posted by [removed]24/02/2008 12:25:07
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33. comment posted by [removed]25/02/2008 09:19:38
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34. pluto2025/02/2008 14:27:52
Homepage: http://www.independent.co.uk/money/loans-credit/banks-distance-themselves-from-land-deal-553402.html
Banks distance themselves from land deal
check this out UKLI
http://www.independent.co.uk/money/loans-credit/banks-distance-themselves-from-land-deal-553402.html
35. comment posted by [removed]25/02/2008 14:31:07
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36. Black Knight26/02/2008 07:29:47
Pluto,
Be objective.
It is obvious that you have an agenda against UKLI. From your postings you are definitely not one of their plotowners. What is the problem?
You also mentioned in earlier posting that you have been “monitoring” this sort of companies for 15-20 years.
But landbanking in the UK only started ~ 2003.
???
What is the issue???
37. rick17/03/2008 21:37:14
hi just found this site .very peefed l bought 2 plots in rothersthorpe can any one let me know whats going on with these plots? thanks
38. Bluebell Grove Rochester Kent21/03/2008 14:17:26
Any other hood-winked vendors of graystone developments reading this?
39. gordon23/03/2008 17:07:27
are people nuts, they are buying these at at an equivelent of 1/30th what they are selling them for. on top of this they arent even worth 1/30th as the land is worthless on its own.
bally chohan has been disqualified for being a company director
http://www.propertyweek.com/story.asp?sectioncode=297&storycode=3109239&c=1
40. GaryP26/03/2008 11:25:59
Homepage: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?NewsAreaID=2&ReleaseID=361677
Has anybody noticed the news that Sinclair Deville was wound-up a couple of weeks ago? It seems the prospects of compo are non-existent but what about the culpability of Hatton Grand, who were intrumental in pushing the Abbey View site?
See the ruling on: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/content/detail.asp?NewsAreaID=2&ReleaseID=361677
41. comment posted by [removed]01/04/2008 18:09:04
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42. comment posted by [removed]01/04/2008 18:39:46
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43. Andy White16/04/2008 16:58:38
Last year I invested 9.50 for my allotment - it's returned radishes, spinash, potatos, leeks, onions and plenty of weeds. For all the unfortunate investors - the best things in life are for free 
44. comment posted by [removed]23/04/2008 19:18:11
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