1. N McCauley24/11/2008 08:26:01
Homepage: http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Sunday/National/2409360/Article/indexpull_html
Malaysia's New Straits Times reporting on the same story with a bit more detail.
2008/11/23
KUALA LUMPUR: Some 2,000 Malaysians have invested over RM50 million in foreign land banking schemes.
The Companies Commission of Malaysia (SSM) is investigating three of these companies.
They offer plots of land in foreign countries for investment, notably in England and Canada, and promise extremely high rates of return, some as much as over 800 per cent.
SSM raided the offices of the three companies on Oct 24 after months of surveillance and seized "relevant assets including ICT equipment and documents" to assist in its investigations.
[more] http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Sunday/National/2409360/Article/indexpull_html
2. Ronnie Yeo27/11/2008 04:30:23
Hi,
Just to inform you guys that the Land Wealth Centre just won Asia Enterprise Award 2008 in Singapore. Just got to know it from the program "In the Professional league" from the Channel News Asia.
3. N McCauley29/11/2008 08:44:46
Homepage: http://www.realestateweb.co.za/realestateweb/view/realestateweb/en/page311?oid=27438&sn=Detail
Its not just Asia where this rubbish is being touted it would seem. Now South Africa as well.
28 November 2008
Purchase a 250mē piece of UK "green belt" land for R225 000 and you could realise a large profit if the plot is rezoned for development. This is the message delivered by St James's Land, a company that has been advertising extensively on radio.
St James's Land (SJL) is one of a number of companies that sells UK plots to investors and speculators. These companies tend to target clients outside the UK. This prevents them falling foul of British legislation governing collective investment schemes.
[more here]
http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw/en/page47?oid=240082&sn=Detail
4. N McCauley02/12/2008 07:00:01
Homepage: http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp?mid=11342254&sort=postdate
There is a post here that covers the overseas problems here.
http://boards.fool.co.uk/Message.asp?mid=11342254&sort=postdate
[snipped]
............The FSA comments on land banking are a joke. They warn that the key risk in land banking is it could be a CIS.
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Library/Communication/Statements...
Even to an English speaker it is meaningless. Who cares if its a CIS.
The key risk is YOU WILL LOSE ALL OF YOUR MONEY.
The UK Government should have a web page with a Union Jack and the Houses of Parliament saying:-
We are sorry. The Land Registration Act 2002 was a good idea but when enacted created the opportunity for huge land banking scams. It is very embarrassing for us to admit that, so we haven't invested in the mechanism to stop them. We only act after the fact when you have lost your money and this means most of the land bankers have time to move offshore. You don't have a vote so we don't really care but
UK LAND BANKING PLOT INVESTMENTS ARE EXTREMELY RISKY. WE ESTIMATE YOU WILL LOSE ALL OF YOUR MONEY. DONT DO IT
5. Mike02/12/2008 10:14:38
Homepage: http://business.edp24.co.uk/content/personalfinance/story.aspx?brand=BIZOnline&category=PersonalFinance&tBrand=BIZOnline&tCategory=PersonalFinance&itemid=NOED01%20Dec%202008%2009%3A03%3A30%3A997
And another one from the Eastern Press
Top 10 consumer scams revealed
01 December 2008
Land Banking is at number five up from number seven in the September chart.
http://business.edp24.co.uk/content/personalfinance/story.aspx?brand=BIZOnline&category=PersonalFinance&tBrand=BIZOnline&tCategory=PersonalFinance&itemid=NOED01%20Dec%202008%2009%3A03%3A30%3A997
If you buy land with the come-on that it will rocket in value when the council grants permission for housing, what happens if the council says no? Could you get your money back by re-selling the land? No, because you paid way over the odds for a few square yards of grass.........
6. Neil11/12/2008 07:45:00
Homepage: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=land+banking+scams
This is a great site providing a great public service. But your hosting company sucks ! The site is very slow and often not available
7. comment posted by [removed]11/12/2008 09:23:17
[comment removed - see PropertySCAM comments policy]
8. PropertySCAM11/12/2008 09:34:43
To Dr CH Tan, Eddie, Cat and Dana (for the benefit of other readers, all the same person)...
You have continued to abuse our comments system by posting using multiple bogus identities and your posts are therefore automatically blocked.
So don't bother posting - no-one will ever see what you post.
9. Chris12/12/2008 05:45:03
Not illegal but it is undoubtedly a scam. Interesting definition from UK MP in Parliament.
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debate/?id=2008-10-30a.1046.1
David Heath (Somerton & Frome, Liberal Democrat)
May we have a debate on what I can only call bogus land banks? An internet site is offering 209 so-called building plots in my constituency for up to 18,000 a time in the village of Dean, which comprises about 30 houses. The plots are on agricultural land that will never, ever have planning permission for such development.
I do not think that the offer is illegal at the moment, but it is undoubtedly a scam. May we have a debate on how we can better protect the potential purchasers, who often will not be in this country, but are expatriates hoping to come home and retire in a house in beautiful rural Somerset? They may find that they have actually bought a field.
10. CC14/12/2008 02:46:10
Homepage: http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Land+banking+plot+scams
A good start to finish summary of a 65M Euro Land Banking scam in Spain and look at the way one scam rolls into the next one..
Full Article here http://news.kyero.com/2008/12/10/fortuna-estates-busted-by-spanish-police-for-land-fraud
“Watch your investment in raw undeveloped land turn into commercial projects with multi-million euro potential,” promised Fortuna Estates, which started selling ‘shares’ in its projects in 2002.
Fortuna Estates contacted potential investors through property exhibitions, cold calls and mailing lists, and a fairly substantial advertising campaign in the British quality press.
Targeting the ‘ordinary investor’ was a key part of Fortuna’s strategy. It claimed it was making high-return land investments accessible to people who could not otherwise afford them. Many of Fortuna’s victims probably invested the minimum of around 10,000 Euros, and the vast majority probably had no experience of land reclassification or the realities of investing in Spanish property.
The valuations were meaningless, as Fortuna made them up to make it look like investors were making big profits, on paper at least. This was enough to keep filling the pipeline with new investors, and convince existing clients to invest more money in new projects. Some of Fortuna Land’s hapless investors are thought to have invested in as many as 3 of their projects.
Fortuna also beguiled it clients by doing all transactions through ‘independent’ lawyers and notaries, and giving clients “legally notarised title deed to the land in which they have invested.”
“ Whether your investment is for 5 acres or just a quarter of an acre, every investment is secured by physical ownership of the title document,” Fortuna assured its investors.
The plans Fortuna had for its land reclassification projects, and the way in which it kept changing them and announcing delays should have had investors’ alarm bells ringing. Plans veered around from hotels with a wedding chapel, to retirement homes, to solar farms. At one point, after long delays, they claimed they had received ‘verbal’ planning permission, but there is no evidence that Fortuna were serious about delivering on their promises.
Most of the victims of this scam are thought to be British, though Irish and Germans investors are also thought to be involved. As an article in the Spanish daily ‘El Pais’ points out, the British have fallen for numerous scams on the Costa del Sol over the last decade, mainly involving property.
Despite making several arrests, the Spanish police do not think they have nabbed any of the masterminds, who are thought to have disappeared, and may already be working on their next scam.
Indeed, ‘El Pais’ reports that victims of the Fortuna Estates fraud have already been targeted by new scam that promises to recover their money for a fee of 10% of their investment paid up front.
11. Imran15/12/2008 07:44:14
UKLI, Bally Chohan has done fraud with everyone....clients as well its own employees.
Bally Chohan's Indian office UKLI REPL has also shut down and the Director has run away after selling the entire assets and eating up the money. He sold off the entire furniture, electronics, IT and the employees are unpaid from 4 months.
One fine day (jsut after the weekend) the office was shut and was empty...when the Director was contacted, he said it openly that the office has been closed and you all dont need to come.
Please read:
http://www.livemint.com/2008/11/20002324/Indian-investors-cheated-out-o.html?pg=1
12. PCIAPOS16/12/2008 17:43:28
i think your side tends to be bias in a lot of ways. why is profitable plots, jardin smith or waltons are hardly mentioned here.
13. CC17/12/2008 02:50:59
PCIAPOS
I have no connection to this site. But read I it often
To be clear i am biased and think plot based land banking is a bad idea.
Jardine Smith / Jardin Smith were offering a site called shrimps field in Reigate but not sure what land they offer now. If people with experience of their land offerings want to post details perhaps some research can be done.
Profitable Plot Company UK was voluntarily liquidated in the UK end 2007.
https://www.ukdata.com/numbers/05181113.html
They have operations in Asia under the Profitable Group. The Malaysian operation is mentioned in the top of this thread.
Concorde Village in Hounslow is being offered by the Profitable Group in Asia
You can see a summary on Concorde Village here
http://www.propertyscam.org.uk/htdocs/hounslow.htm
Walton offer land in Canada not the UK. Some people do seem to have exit success while some complain of losing money. There is a fairly vigorous discussion on their business model here.
http://forums.canadianbusiness.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2795&tstart=0
Most people who post here are against Land Banking plots sales in the the UK. If a land banking company is selling to you they will tell you why this site is wrong or biased or rubbish. I disagree but here are 6 sensible things you can do to verify your investment if you dont want to believe what you read on the internet.
1: Sales people, and anyone who has already invested even if they are your friends will almost certainly be earning commission from you making a purchase. You should get independent verification on any information offered. Never confuse friendship or trust with good investment.
2: Contact the UK council responsible for the land being offered and ask them the status. Remember the council cannot give you an absolute outcome on a planning application . If they do there is no point in having the planning process. You should listen to their guidance very carefully.
3: What price are you paying for the land ? How much is it marked up from the price they paid for it ? Find the original purchase price of the land being offered. You can find this from the UK land registry for a small fee. This was the value without planning permission they paid for the land. Their original purchase price minus selling costs is a good estimate on the value of your land if the company fails or planning permission is not achieved. It will also enable you to verify who owns the land. If you cant verify the price or the owner why buy it ?
4: Ask yourself Why ? . Why are you being targetted for this unique opportunity to make lots of money. Why isnt everyone else buying it. Why dont the FSA in the UK approve it. Why is land banking consistently featured in UK media top 10 scams in the UK. Why if its so good dont they just keep it. ?
5: Get it in writing. Remember the golden rule of sales. If they wont put it writing its either not true or its not a committment. Be careful of words. Estimates, hopes, expectations, dreams and future projections are not committments. If the company fails and Land Banking is not regulated in your territory even if you have it in writing it may be no help to you in getting your money back. Most land banking companies have either failed or been shut down in the UK with considerable losses for investors.
6: The company are hoping you will believe they can turn dirt into diamonds by telling you what diamonds are worth. You are buying dirt plus a conversion process. Understand most people end up with a useless piece of worthless dirt. Make sure you only consider information relevant to the land you are buying. It does not matter what UK commercial land values have done for the last 100 years or how close the land is to high value property or how many houses are needed in the UK. It only matters what will happen to the piece of dirt you bought.
14. Black Knight18/12/2008 09:14:55
I was invited to UKLII Kuala Lumpur prior to the raid by the Companies Commission Malaysia.
One of the director told me of the impending rebranding exercise that they are undertaking after months of preparation. The reason given was because the name UKLII is no longer viable. They said they tried to salvage the UKLII brand earlier but it was shot down. They have no control. They also assured us that they will continue with the promotion of the land they sold earlier.
One week later the CCM/SSM simultaneously raided UKLII, Profitable Plots and Edgeworth. They were investigating the companies under Division 5 Section 84 (INTERESTS OTHER THAN SHARES, DEBENTURES, ETC.) and DIVISION 2 Section 363 (Restriction on offering shares, debentures, etc., for subscription or purchase). This is equivalent to CIS in the UK.
Having studied their business models, the “Malaysian Companies Act 1964” etc., I doubt whether any charges will be brought against UKLII. However PP (through their AAA scheme) and Edgeworth with their guaranteed returns clearly contravenes.
I have been to the company again since then. In place of UKLII a new company called KPWG International has appeared. They again reassured me that they will continue with the promotion of the sites they sold earlier. They also told me they have appointed Barton Willmore as their planning consultant.
A few questions begs answers. Since only 3 companies were raided by the Malaysian authority, does that mean Land International Far East (now Sherwood Henderson/ landwealthcentre), Jardine Smith International and Walton are all OK? All operates landbanking schemes. If not OK, why were they not raided?
On a tangent, I know of at least 2 companies in the UK that operates landbanking schemes that is approved by the FSA. So landbanking has been legitimized as an industry. Why no one mentioned this in propertyscam earlier I don’t know.
Black Knight.
15. CC18/12/2008 15:17:11
Black Knight .
The official receivers report says that the UKLI land is pretty much worthless and has little or no chance of getting planning permission. Investors will get cents on the dollar if they are lucky. If you are being offered the same land in Malaysia why do you think a Malaysian company can change that into gold?
To say that X is innocent or offering a great quality because they were not investigated is flawed logic. The lack of an investigation does not prove innocence OR guilt. Land Banking companies were not investigated in the UK until people lost money. Approval by an authorized regulator might prove that the company is adhering to a set of rules. Audited positive results might prove a good investment.
Plot based Land Banking is not legitimized in the UK. To date there have been no successful exits for plot based land banking. In the years 2002 to 2007 the UK experienced the biggest property boom in history. In a strong wind even turkeys can fly. None of these turkeys ever did. These companies were all operating during the biggest ever property boom and none of them made a successful exit. A large number of companies have gone away with most of the investor’s money including UKLI.
Since the middle of 2007 prime UK building land WITH planning permission is down in value by 20% to 40%. The UK currency has declined significantly against the Asian currencies by up to 30%. The paper losses for a Singaporean or Malaysian are already huge.
So why do you believe that a plot with no planning permission, green belt and owned by somebody who lives in another country and probably paid 15 - 30 times the true value makes an attractive investment for a UK property development company trying to survive ?
Land Banking consistently features in the top ten consumer scams in the UK. Perhaps it’s not OK to say that in Malaysia. But it is being said in the UK. And since you are being offered UK land plots you might want to listen.
Get on a plane and buy some UK land if that’s what you want. You might get lucky or you might lose. But paying 15-30 times the true value for a plot does not make sense.
16. Enee18/12/2008 22:08:45
Black Knight, your comment:
On a tangent, I know of at least 2 companies in the UK that operates landbanking schemes that is approved by the FSA.
Who are these two companies?
Why can they sell land?
17. Imran19/12/2008 07:03:54
Enee, please mention the name of those 2 companies.
PCIAPOS/CC/Dark Knight,
Here is what I feel and think. UKLI's land is worthless indeed. What Bally Chohan has smartly done is that he being the sole owner/director of UKLI Limited, took loan from his own company. This money was supposed to be used for promotion of the land (promotion in front of the council). THIS LOAN WAS NEVER SUPPOSED TO BE REPAID as Bally Chohan always knew that the land will never get planning permission..... he took the loan >> used the same money for setting up his company UK Capital Investments Group in the UAE (Dubai). The so called strategic land experts Brian Smith and Derek Lawrence resigned/withdraw from UKLI visualising that FSA will shut UKLI soon. This was the time when UKLI started giving tremendous offers and even Merc to the best selling land agent >> he sold a large number of plots in a short span (starting of 2008) as he had to pay a lot of money to Nakheel from which he bought land for his Dubai projects.
Bally Chohan realized the FSA will shut UKLI soon so they started heavy advertising in UAE, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia too through UKLII which was registered in British Virgin Islands
I know all this as one of my roommates became sales consultant and wanted me to sell this land as well as UKLI was giving fantastic commission to sales guys. We used to discuss the future of UKLI and landbanking at length and used to calculate the monies that Bally must have made... In this course Bally was banned by the UK Government, even went to Dubai Jail, was beaten badly and cheated by Indian Directors and his close friends/collegues have filed cases against Bally :)
18. Black Knight19/12/2008 09:33:18
To Enee (#16),
Check sustainablelandplc.co.uk as an example. I am an independent land broker and are not connected with them.
To CC (#17)
You assume a lot of things don’t you? I too have scrutinised the latest report from Deloitte on UKLI and are also aware of the current economic situation in the UK and worldwide. I also got burnt too during 1997/8 during Asian financial meltdown and are careful.
Try to keep an open perspective. There have been a lot of scam and a lot of companies have been shuttered for scamming (H&G, P-Spy etc). The reality is land as an investment vehicle is legal, lucrative and proven. Landbanking, if done properly and ethically, could also be lucrative but it is yet to be proven. Maybe now, with most of the scammers gone and a few licensed companies emerging, the proof will come. All it takes is for someone with principle to do it properly. Problem is how do you identify the correct people and organization?
As to your statement on value, We can argue about this for a very long time but ultimately all values are relative.
Black Knight.
19. CC19/12/2008 11:11:02
BK
You are correct on them being licensed but restrictively.
As I interpret they are not licensed to offer to the general public. (They say they won't on their web site but the FSA says they can not).
http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmPermissions.do?sid=184813
Activity Name: Establishing, operating or winding up an unregulated collective investment scheme
http://strategic-compliance.co.uk/2008/04/29/marketing-unregulated-collective-investment-schemes-funds/
“Unregulated Collective Investment Scheme” (UCIS) is something of a misnomer. Far from being unregulated, the FSA restrict them them very tightly indeed - for funds structured as a UCIS, there is a simple edict:
“Such schemes cannot be marketed to the general public and are otherwise restricted in their promotion"
So you should not find these land plots being sold at property shows, sold by telephone, or as an incredible investment opportunity on the internet.
They seem to have very long term views on returns (2017 to 2026 on the Bracknell site I looked at).
The FSA intention seems to be that only sophisticated investors can be offered this and only through licensed advisors. Assuming all parties adhere to that arrangement it seems reasonable.
Its not for me but if interested I would still want to know the area being offered, the current cost of an equivalent planning approved building plot of the same size and compare with the offered price. Their minimum investment is stated as "around 18000 pounds" which seems very high for unplanned land but of course depends on plot size.
20. Black Knight19/12/2008 12:14:02
CC,
Yes, It all depends on your investment appetite. It seems they are sold out.
Land investment does involve a long term perspective, but the returns could be lucrative. Doing it alone may not be for everyone as land with real development potential tend to be very expensive. (I have seen GBP800K offers for a 4 Ac site with a lapsed pp for investment in the countryside and up to 4M for a 5 ac brownfield sites). Promotion through professionals (in order to maximize your potential) may cost another small fortune.
You can try your luck and go it alone but I wish you luck. Maybe you can get lucky and be the one in a million but you still need to put in the time and effort to maintain your property, do the promotion for allocation and apply for planning permission. Oh, you still need designs and drawings for the planning permission application.
Thus landbanking (properly constituted) presents an option for the sophisticated investor as all the headache in the promotion and management is taken care of. All these involves money, thus the high mark-up. After all no one starts a business to lose money.
A prudent investor would spread their holdings. However in this troubling times, even banks are not safe. Look at Northern Rock. Use your common sense and follow your gut feeling.
Black Knight
21. cc19/12/2008 19:21:37
BK.
My common sense tells me not to invest in land banking. The theory of land banking is fine. The complete lack of regulation, liquidity, huge markups, 100% failure rate as an investment to date, high industry levels of either fraud, incompetence and company failure make it a very poor bet for even a diversified portfolio.
In a commission based business which land banking clearly is, paying upfront and relying on trust for future delivery is a recipe for disaster . All the salespeople who made the sale will be turnover in a few years or less so who has the vested (financial) interest to honour the obligation to deliver the planning service you put so much value on? Relying on the land banking companies to be good guys about this hasn't worked well so far. Most stay until it ceases to be a cash cow and then leave with the money.
22. Black Knight20/12/2008 02:35:35
CC
As I said before, it depends on your investment appetite. And stratergy.
As to commission, stock brokers earn on commission. Financial advisors, selling bonds etc. are on commission. Car sales people are on commission. Even the post office earns commission on payment bills collected.
You also miss that it needs a properly constituted company (regulated if need be, insured definitely) and someone ethical at the helm to make landbanking pays as an investment. Admitted it will be a long term stratergy but then land investment has always been long term.
As you mentioned earlier, there are diamonds in that tons of dirt. You just have to sift through the dirt to find it. Just watch out for the crocks and jackals.. Do your due diligence and your instinct.
Admitted it is not for everyone, but it could be perfect to balance a portfolio.
Best Regards,
Black Knight.
23. Simon21/12/2008 03:15:41
Homepage: http://www.landwealthcentre.com
A successful scam consists of two essential parts: the fraud and the getaway. An ill-gotten fortune, no matter how spectacular, isn't very useful if it can only be spent on cigarettes and candy bars at the prison commissary. So a competent con artist will figure out from square one not only how to part the suckers from their cash, but also how to disappear when the inevitable end becomes imminent.
24. Chen21/12/2008 12:16:52
Black Knight
CC did not say there are diamonds in that tons of dirt. You already sound like a land bank salesperson misquoting facts to suit your needs.
He said:- they will talk about the value of diamonds while selling you dirt .
It is pretty certain you will get useless dirt (although some companies dont even deliver that the paperwork is fake). The process to convert the dirt into diamonds in the UK has so far been a complete failure and is completely unproven.
If you are such a believer test it out but dont encourage others to do so.
25. Black Knight24/12/2008 02:02:34
Chen.
I am a land broker. I am also invested in land. My hobbies are IT and reading and I spend a lot of time in front of my computers. If you look at my postings before this, my outlook is quite neutral but I am against scammers.
I joined this blog when some family members and friends ask for help to get their money back from Profitable Plots. I also researched core stratergies, planning processes, UK Government machineries etc in order to understand what UK landbanking is all about. Through my advise, some got their money back.
Recently did more research as I helped a customer acquire an investment grade land in the UK. It is a complex process with consultants, brokerages and lawyers involved. There is also forex, taxes, law etc to consider. Risky if the consultant cannot deliver on the promotion, but it is a risk accepted by the customer.
The point is, all investments involve risks. It all depends on individual’s appetite and aptitude. What appears unacceptable to you could be ideal for others. And vice versa.
What I advocate is a more balanced view. This is just my opinion.
Merry X-Mas and Happy New Year to all.
Black Knight
26. chris30/12/2008 14:01:42
I found this quote today from the CEO of a company whose stock price was $286 in 1997 valuing the company somewhere around $6 Billion
http://geology.about.com/cs/mineralogy/a/aa042097.htm
"the meltdown began when scurrilous local rumors were picked up by one of the ghost writers on the Internet on a chat page or whatever."
In other words dont trust malicious gossip you read on the internet believe me the CEO because i wont lie to you.
However it turned out later that the CEO was defending a huge goldfield in Indonesia that did not exist. It was one of the biggest scams ever and Invesors lost Billions of dollars. This scam used a single source of what turned out to be highly exaggerated information which was never independently verified. The source was a long way from Canada. All the press releases, company reports, independent analysis and glowing reports were based on that single source from people who had a vested interest in wanting to believe and not to verify. As each year passed the information on yields became more exaggerated.
This is very similar to the way Land Banking companies market. Dont ask questions, trust us and the sources we suggest. Dont believe anything you read in property scam or other internet sites. Things have been delayed a bit but the results will be even better than forecast just trust us.
With UK land plots it is almost always possible to verify the existence of the land and the original purchase price. It is also possible to ask the local authority planning department for their opinion on the land. If you are spending a lot of money why not visit the UK and verify your investment. Finally while there is a lot of rubbish on the Internet there are also a lot of facts.
It is a fact that most land banking customers read only reports generated by the Land Banking company, listen only to the saleperson or other land banking customers and end up paying a huge markup for almost worthless land.
Con artists never want questions to be asked or independent verification to take place.
That is factual and balanced view.
27. Investment Property Rumours31/12/2008 01:51:41
Homepage: http://investmentpropertyrumours.blogspot.com
We have looked for a specific thread on Fortuna/Oanna to no avail, but for those that have been scammed by them; http://investmentpropertyrumours.blogspot.com/2008/12/fortuna-land-and-oanna-group-how-it-all.html
28. Black Knight06/01/2009 06:26:20
Chris,
The Bre-X is a good example of a scam and I do agree with most of what you said.
My question is, are you saying all land bankers are scammers? How about the ones licensed by the FSA? What about companies that does not fall under the FSA jurisdiction? I think as in life, it is not black and white but a whole shades of grey in between.
You have to do your due your diligence before doing any investment. I would, short of “Paralysis By Analysis”. Beyond that, you have to trust your gut feeling.
All investments involve risks, what risks to accept and what to avoid. That is the Million Dollar question isn’t it?
Best Regards,
Black Knight